This one is for not just those Catholic Bishops and U.R. Ananthamurthy but also Mr. Jaswant Singh and Ms Vasundhara Raje and every other Indian who loses sleep over every local incident of violence or mishap, jumps to the most attractive conspiracy theory if there was one, demands CBI probes and Judicial enquiries ?at the drop of a hat, express moral indignation when a Arushi murder case is reduced to a media circus but then conveniently forget that at the root of all this is the rot that afflicts Local Law Enforcement across the nation.
This is also to remind them that those who abett and participate in Mob Violence are no outlaws operating outside the bounds of society. These are almost always individuals with a stake in the system who are otherwise law abiding but feel encouraged to break the rule of law by seeking refuge in the anonymity of the Mob.
Offstumped had on multiple occassions called for Local Law Enforcement to be freed of the current system of bureaucratic hierarchies controlled by centralized Ministries. On every such occasion Offstumped had demanded that Local Law Enforcement be made directly accountable to the people through direct democracy with Officers who have a direct stake in the Community. Offstumped had also demanded on every such occasion that current system of Political Control of Law Enforcement be brought to an end so the first responders have a direct obligation to the community they serve and not to a bureaucrat or Minister sitting in the State Capital.
Below is a compilation of past posts on this subject.
Offstumped on the Burra Bazar Blaze in Kolkota back in January 2008 on how the alarm bells are ringing on Local Governance.
Offstumped on the Noida Nithari Killings on how Social Justice had subverted Criminal Justice back in January of 2007.
Offstumped asking Mumbaikars to make Local Law Enforcement an issue in the BMC Polls, also in January of 2007.
Also demanding autonomy for Bangalore with a specific demand to make local law enforcement directly accountable to the residents of Bangalore.
Then this comprehensive piece in May of 2008 on the rot in local law enforcement.
The history of India in the last century and this decade is littered with a million mutinies where local law enforcement just failed the citizens in its failure to be uncompromising and unrelenting in upholding the rule of law. Offstumped had highlighted this in its analysis of the Srikrishna Report on Mumbai 1993 riots.
In the face of this fundamental flaw with the way we run local law enforcement it is galling that Catholic Bishops to Communal Socialists like U.R. Ananathamurthy should hijack the public debate on the recent violence in Karnataka to a discussion on fascism and root causes.
Offstumped would like to ask these Communal Socialists where they were on every previous occasion when Karnataka or any other state witnessed mob violence on issues as benign as a wedding procession to issues as asinine as a Movie Actor’s Death.
Offstumped Bottomline: From communal riots to the attacks on Taslima Nasreen, from the Cauvery riots to Raj Kumar’s Death, India is no stranger to Mob Violence. To selectively view the fundamental problem with Mob Violence through a Communal Prism does the victims of Mob Violence little justice. Drawing dubious parallels with Terrorism and obfuscating the issue with talk of Fascism only hijacks the debate away from the rot in Local Law Enforcement. It may help armchair analysts assuage their guilt. But it provides little or no insurance to the common man from the next mob attack.?
Filed under: Lok Sabha Polls 2008-2009, War on Terror, betrayal of aam admi
The fact is IF we discuss on these issue and forget about Secularism/COMMUNALISM then how can some NGO will be able to live.
The more they show India in bad light the More they get Donationation from foreign agencies.
Thank u for this post as it really concern every Indian citizen.
Beside Law Enforcement agency,India needs huge Reform in Judicial System where there is No accoutability of JUDGES.
Need an expanded and better trained police force.
I was talking to a friend about developing a scorecard for government performance. She will probably take it on
The same way that many people justify violence supposedly in defense of their community, language, religion, it is but natural for those at the receiving end to debate causes.
I dont think most people asked for answers from the cops on Swami Lakshmiannand Saraswati’s murder. It was all about causes – conversions. Even now, I see very little from BJP about demanding answers from their own ally’s government. Most commenters on this blog too haven’t asked for answers from cops.
That’s natural when law enforcement does not exist.
Here are your own posts about causes – note the lack of paragraphs about pathetic investigative skills from cops.
http://offstumped.nationalinterest.in/2008/08/29/the-case-against-proselytization/
http://offstumped.nationalinterest.in/2008/08/28/the-evangelical-project-in-orissa/
But I agree with the idea you are pointing out. Law enforcement and respect for law and order are critical to a civilised nation, and that works well, there would not be a need to bother with causes of violence. Disagreements would then naturally be discussed and negotiated.
Practical difficulties: Our cops come often are often barely educated, come from slums and desperate circumstances, earn a pittance, watch corruption in the top rungs and learn corruption, often are known to be as bad as the criminals, zero infrastructure and nil training.
Take a look at Delhi. No cops anywhere. You can drive around in Delhi for an year without any cop ever stopping you. In mumbai, you have a cop almost every few hundred meters, and lots more police patrols. Result: Casual crimes, like kidnapping, shooting someone for overtaking your car etc exist much less.
Local law enforcement is a state issue. And states are loathe to give up any ‘rights’ in this regard. Perhaps, rightly so.
I do remember some discussion in sarkari circles of implementing fixed terms for police officals to prevent the abuse of the police transfers powers by corrupt netas. Some commission recommendation that the govt had accepted or something. Wonder what happened to that.
Am wondering what an elected top-cop post (such as Sheriff like here in the US) would do for police performance and results. Of course, will have to disqualify known criminals from running else the mafia will endup getting elected sheriff.
In any case, a national cadre of national police services immediately needs to be pressed into service whose mandate kicks off the moment any crime link crosses state boundaries, w/o requiring state govt permission etc.
http://www.dailypioneer.com/indexn12.asp?main_variable=front%5Fpage&file_name=story4%2Etxt&counter_img=4
Rajesh Singh | New Delhi
‘Centre ignoring my panel recommendations’
Justice VS Malimath is a disappointed man. The eminent jurist who headed a committee on criminal justice reforms that recommended far reaching amendments to criminal laws dealing with terror among other crimes, fears the nation could lose its battle against terrorism if tough options were not exercised by the UPA Government.
The former Chief Justice of Karnataka and Kerala High Courts recently met Union Home Minister Shivraj Patil and conveyed his apprehensions, requesting him to act on the panel recommendations without further delay.
Speaking to The Pioneer on Wednesday, Justice Malimath said, “I met the Home Minister to tell him it was not possible to deal with terrorists under existing provisions. Our recommendations for revamping the laws should be brought in force.”
On the Home Minister’s response to his appeal, he said, “Shivraj Patil was convinced but expressed helplessness saying the Government would have to take a political call since the views of the allies and the human rights activists had to be considered.”
Justice Malimath said the meeting took place at his initiative as he wanted to brief the Home Minister on the gravity of the developing situation and the urgency for firm and immediate action. “While I had publicly stated my willingness to meet political leaders and explain the need for quick affirmative action, none from the Government responded. So I took the first step,” he revealed.
The Malimath committee comprising five other members besides Justice Malimath had suggested a series of measures to strengthen the system to provide “justice to victims” and “protect the innocent.” The comprehensive report commissioned by the NDA regime assumes importance in the backdrop of the increased terrorist attacks and a debate on ways to tackle the menace.
Strongly refuting the claim by some political leaders that present laws were adequate, he stated, “Today’s laws do not ensure conviction. Terrorism has become profitable since terrorists, knowing they cannot be punished put in repeat performances.”
Pointing out that, not only was there a spurt in terrorist attacks but that such attacks were “of an increasingly gruesome nature”, the former Chief Justice advocated a no-holds barred approa
Another day and another blast in Tripura.
I seriously believe there is an interntaional hand. And it is not just radicalized muslims but a lot of other folks who are probably fronting i.e., Naxals etc.
I won’t be surprised if IM is a fictitious organization and genuinely hope the folks arrested so far are not scapegoats to drive a wedge between Muslims and Hindus
Congress too questions Jamia encounter, though informally
http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/News/PoliticsNation/Congress_too_questions_Jamia_encounter_though_informally/articleshow/3550940.cms
NEW DELHI: Trapped between BJP’s charges of ‘minority appeasement’ and the fear of losing Muslim votes in the coming Delhi polls for its handling of
terror suspects from Jamia Nagar in the Capital, the ruling Congress is discreetly raising questions about the recent encounter deaths in the Muslim locality.
Top Congress sources indicated that a delegation of Delhi Congress leaders would meet home minister Shivraj Patil at an informal level to raise questions about the encounter.
Two suspected Indian Mujahideen members had been shot dead in an encounter with the Delhi police at Jamia Nagar on 19 September. A Delhi police inspector also died of bullet wounds from the incident.
However, with Congress leaders receiving feedback from Jamia Nagar residents as well as from Muslim intellectuals and civil society groups that many in the community are not convinced about the police’s motives in the encounter, the Congress is now hesitantly questioning its own law enforcement agency.
“Certain questions have been raised about the encounter. These must be addressed,” Congress general secretary Digvijay Singh said.
Congress is simply great. Didn’t they say they will root out terror. Now they are questioning the police. The best thing for the country would be to root out the Congress.
Ramu says: “Our cops come often are often barely educated, come from slums and desperate circumstances, earn a pittance, watch corruption in the top rungs and learn corruption, often are known to be as bad as the criminals, zero infrastructure and nil training.”
Basically, our cops come from among us.
Yossarin: For local law enforcement to be accountable to local community, they need to be paid from the local coffers.Which means the taxes collected in a particular community, should all go to the community, after which they give out a portion to the Union and State govts. In essence, a reversal of the currext taxation process (and a harking back to the pre-British process).
It is this half arse thinking that led to the routing in UP elections. That state is imp in the calcuations to the path to the centre. The hawks in right side talked abt Hindutva, Ram Mandir and all other nonsense in the election manifesto and the UP people showed the door and in 09 elections double efforts, money, energy has to be put in UP to win majority seats or atleast decent numbers. Mayawati made these “Lunds” and “Gotis” to wear lungotis and loaf around. Arjun Sen Gupta’s report clearly has mentioned 800+ million Indians get Rs.20 or less a day, but how can duffers living far off in US, getting 3 solid meals a day and may be timely snacks as well, think abt those poor Indians, forget abt the poor, the dunces and dolts don’t even know what it means to live on less than 2 meals a day. Instead of having development as the election manifesto all rubbish junk was used. Fortunately, Jaitley was prudent enough not to let the jerks run the show later. Yediyurappa, Modi etc all spke abt develpment which clicked with the public (Only towards the end “maut ka saudagar” became an issue but even then it wasn’t based on Hindutva, Ram Mandir etc). The half arsed duffers among BJP and co who hijacked the election management during UP elections didn’t even have the balls to face introspection meetings with in BJP itself. Another dumber/duffer Rajnath Singh, an RSS/VHP lackey, scuttled any meaningful debate on UP fiasco. Sudheendra Kulkarni, Swapan Das Gupta have written abt these. Rajnath has set his eyes on PM post after Advani and is instigating other leaders against Modi lest Modi become invinsible. These are the only things VHP/BD are capable (by supporting Rajnath and the likes) of doing nothing more.
For a change, a good eye-opener for all pseudo secs in India and on CNN IBN
http://www.ibnlive.com/blogs/ashutosh/1945/52732/jamia-encounter-and-muslim-identity.html
@ sud
In India if there is anyone considered less trustworthy than a cop, it is a politician!
That is a bit of a generalization – but the people who can get elected in India are usually powerful already. Either very rich and powerful, or has a huge following among some class / group and anyone decent and really willing to do good work is always hounded out.
Even the local panchayat elections are no nasty its not funny.
There is absolute mistrust of whoever is elected, and its not on the same level as in the US or UK. For example, BJP is considered murderers (or people who will lead the country quickly into a civil war) by Congress supporters and commies, while BJP supporters treat Congress as traitors. Respect for the opposition – whats that? True mature democracies know what statesmanship is like – look at the amount o bipartisan stuff that actually happens. There are unspoken understandings on how you wont talk about some issues as they are dangerous, there are understandings about how much you would exploit certain issues. You do not see Democrats calling Palin an idiot bitch – and nobody calls Obama a traitor (they imply stuff politely – by Indian standards).
If we look at India, un-elected posts are some of the most highly trusted. Information commissioner, EC, judges…
Why we are only blaming the cops ? The root cause is the parties ruling us. All the political parties want to usurp power by hook or crook and hang on to it; not for serving the people, but for further looting the people in the name of the so called aam admi. The cops are one among us. If they are bad, we have to find the answer ourselves. .
The politicians misused everything. The most misused is the word ” secularism”. It has acquired various meanings and various connotations. Once I used to think that the state has no religion. But far from it, the state does have preferences in religions. First we have to set the secularism in right perspective. Treat people as just citizens – not belonging to any community, caste, religion, ethnicity, linguistic etc. etc.
My dear Ramu, does it matter whether one is educated (I have differences over this word, for many people are jut highly literate but not educated as according to me education means many more things which includes civilised behaviour too), comes from slums etc. etc., I have seen people coming from high castes, classes, the rich and the mighty are more corrupt than the average poor or middle class people. Note recently the boy from the slum took the bomb on the mistaken premise that the motor cycle born terrorists forgot the package, and died in the blast. It is not the class or caste or religion which is the real reason but greed. Unfortunately, we have been ruled by a bunch of greedy people which permeates the entire system. Even now the entire system whether it is politics or economy sustains itself because of majority of our ordinary citizens are law abiding and bound by some morality which they have imbibed from the society, their peers, their religious moorings.
Actually what we need today is stricter laws, both criminal and civil, with no loopholes at all. If somebody does any crime he should receive punishment which should be sure and immediate. What we see today is cases are not decided for years together. In many cases the criminals get away scot free.Borrow some money from the bank and the next day go to the bank and say you are not going to repay. I am sure nothing will happen. The law takes its own course. Case goes to the court. The case lingers on. By the time the case is decided, there is no security left or the person who borrowed must have died or vanished. A thorough overhauling is needed and the rights activists should also be made accountable.
Ramu has a point when he refers to unelected posts being highly effective.
Constituent Assembly which drafted India’s Constitution was filled with gems of people, truly patriotic, devoted, knowledgeable, well versed and nurtured in true democratic traditions.
Our Constitution was hailed as one of the best. And I suppose, subject to correction, that members of Constituent Assembly were handpicked and unelected.
The democratic experience in India has succeeded in the sense that we have had elections about every 5 years to elect Lok Sabha and State Legislatures. But with every election, there has been erosion in the sprititual and moral values held sacred and sacrosanct. Mundane values replaced them. The tragedy is you cannot elect an honest, upright, democratic person but criminals and thugs having track record of criminality, pending criminal cases, get elected easily and they will be our law creators of the future.
Anyhow, with India’s rich heritage of spritual upbringing and concern for moral values, ultimately the maturity will dawn upon the electorateto select and then elect their candidates to deliver the goods on expected lines.
@ KVS
There is a reason why I talk about the poor classes. The poor are in survival mode, every day is a battle against someone since your childhood. Its a dog eat dog world out there – you dont have food, light, water, illnesses, sexual abuse, bullies, no law enforcement. Coming from that environment, its difficult to be suddenly become virtuous – the average cop is just a goonda in uniform, he does some good stuff, but equally tends to use his power — power is to be misused is the lesson he has learned. He can be changed, of course, but it does not happen easily.
The rich and their values are a different thing altogether, with its own reasons.
Laws are no big deal if we dont get to enforce anything. Where are the cops who can enforce laws? I dont have the numbers, but the percentage of cops per 1000 people here is nowhere near any developed country.
We do not have enough courts, or judges.
We do not pay our cops. If we dont pay them, they will take the money.
Cops have no training, they dont know the laws they are supposed to implement, and they have motivations like lets reduce the crime in our area by not registering FIRs.
In India cops can pick up anyone, beat them up, ruin their lives, and get max a 6 month suspension — where’s the proof for atrocities? A warrant means anyone can end up in jail. In truth, its easy to get anyone in jail in India – there have been foreign CEOs who landed in India, found someone here has an arrest warrant against them, and had to stay undercover and escape the country the next day. We arrest first, and ask questions later. Remember Aarushi case? The dad was in jail for a month, the servants for 3 months – and there is still no proof – and the court thinks thats fine. No compensation.
By the way thats also human rights – so be careful when we say we dont need human rights. A few determined people can easily get anyone illegally arrested without any official record, get tortured, and you really have no way out. Thats what happens when the police system was designed to use against the natives by the British and nothing much has changed.
Our police jeeps or stations do not have closed circuit cameras. We have almost no computer network, or even electricity.
Essentially, we are jacked.
Dear Ramu, the Police force may be bad, but our politicians and political system are rotten. The system, which includes ourselves too, makes the cops bad. Why we blame only the cops. When cases are not decided for years together, where is the question of justice ?
It is the media sensation mongering which made the Arushi case so notorius. We can very well say that the media hijacked the case. It is time for the media to decide where to stop sensationalising any case.
About the rights activists. How many poor people for petty crimes are in jail waiting for the cases to conclude. Who will compensate for their lost years. Our human right activists are for terrorists, Naxalites, Veerappans, Sohrabuddins and the likes. These right activists are not for the ordinary folk.
Can it be ignored that these cops are under tremendous pressure of work with their working hours extending to days together when circumstances so demand which are so often. They are poorly paid, live in chawls. What we need is complete overhaul of the entire system, rather than blaming the cops for everything.
Laws should be stricter without any loopholes, law enforcement agencies should be free and made accountable for their actions, speedy justice should be delivered. For everything time frame should be given. Unless something is done for speedy justice, and every one in the chain is made accountable, the blame game will go on.
It is also absolutely essential that the right activists should also be made accountable for their action. They should not be allowed to throw dirt on all and sundry without being made accountable for their action. Human rights are for all including the victims of terrorism, the police, the soldier, the petty criminal who are behind bars for years together and not for terrorists, naxalites etc. The VC is ready to defend and spend money from the University for the alleged terrorists, but has he done anything for the ordinary folks who are behind bars for ordinary and petty crimes (let it be from the same religion). Why rights are for only a certain section (I do not mean any religion, but those who indulge in heinous crimes against humanity) of the people ?
@ KVS
I am not ‘blaming’ them. More like just saying it. They don’t have a choice, but they are a problem too.
If you notice, not a single political party talks about these issues. We do. That is also because fixing the system is going to cost a hell of a lot, and we frankly don’t want to spend all that money.
if we even pay the cops a bit more, the bribery would come down. If we have more cops, casual crimes would stop.
About the rights activists – in this blog, we always talk about them in the context of terrorists etc. But there are a very large number of activists wo are not in the limelight, and confront India’s cops, illegal arrests and torture, bureaucracy and judicial system, and fight for the common man. They are highly effective too. But they are not in the limelight as a few who are very visible and take up high profile issues.
Human rights are a critical part of democracy and a civilized society. When cops arrest you or even illegally pick you up, its the human rights activists you can turn to, and who can create enough noise and provide legal help. Civilized society would collapse if due process is not followed.
Some of them defintely have their motivations. But there are a lot many who work selflessly for the ones who have been wronged. They come on Doordarshan programs, vernacular newspapers – so we dont see them much.
The point is Human Rights activits are defending the persons who are accused of crimes falling in the nature of heinous crimes like terrorism on the ground that they are innocent or are unncessarily victimised. These activits are conveniently ingnoring the human rights of persons killed, and their families, and also the human rights of cops and their families.This bias is creating furore and anger in the minds of people who have come to believe the present government is lacking political will to counter the menace of terrorism. No wonder then when Swapan Das Gupta told Teesta in the TV show of Big Fight that ’she was the overground part of terrorism’, everone jumped to defend Teesta and asked for apology from Das Gupta, which he wisely and correctly refused. This sort of Holier than Thou attitude of Human Rights activits is the bane of current situation in India.
>>In the face of this fundamental flaw with the way we run local law enforcement it is galling that Catholic Bishops to Communal Socialists like U.R. Ananathamurthy should hijack the public debate on the recent violence in Karnataka to a discussion on fascism and root causes.
Law enforcement has nothing to do with the ability of rabble rousers to “hijack” public debates. Whoever has control over media sets the agenda for public debate. It is a real debate if the media truly reflects public opinion; a staged one if not.
THE QUESTION IS WHY HUMAN RIGHT & MEDIA NOT QUESTIONING ENCOUNTER OF JAMIA???
JUST THINK IF SUCH ENCOUNTER HAS HAPPENED IN GUJARAT……….
DAILY WE HAD MEDIA REPORTING ON PROME TIME.
I URGE HUMAN RIGHT & MEDIA TO INVESTIGATE JAMIA ENCOUNTER AS OTHERWISE WE “COMMUNAL HINDU WITH RSS/VHP/BD TAG WILL SAY THAT OUR MEDIA & HUMAN RIGHTS ARE JUST “TAIL” OF CONGRESS.
@ prashant
They are questioning it. Though not outright.
@ J
J, that is what you see on TV. Unfortunately, that gives the wrong impression about them.
Let us try to look at it logically.
Terrorists were killed in an encounter. A cop was killed too. We should not defend the terrorists, and we should support the cops, right?
Agree totally. Now the other question – how we know for sure that they are terrorists? Because the cops tell us so.
We know for a fact that cops dont always tell the truth. We also know that they make mistakes. They do things sometimes to please the government, sometimes to please an underworld don, sometimes to take revenge and sometimes.
The human rights activists you see on TV outright doubt the police version. But here on the street, while people say it is possibly an encounter, very few are willing to say so with 100 % certainty. We have seen a lot of claims by police which were comprehensively disproved. So its wise to be a bit doubtful.
Then, rights of the victims. Human rights activism has historically always been to protect people from a state or people that take away their rights. Daily, there are tens of thousands of people who are being denied their rights, and human rights activism, WORLD OVER, has been about that.
Victims of terror – that is an equally important issue. We KNOW that they were victims of terror attacks. A bomb blast is a bomb blast. How does one protest against that? Terrorist organisations are not a visible enemy you can debate on TV, or take out a morcha against. They dont care.
What we need is an entirely new type of organisation that is about taking care of the victims. terrorists are not going to stop bombing if someone takes out a morcha or file court cases. Taking care of victims of terror attacks is the government’s job, preventing it is the govts job – making them do that job well — that is hardly in the skillset of someone trained to battle the government. That calls for another type of social organisation.
Supporting OR attacking cops who may or may not have got the right guys — that is not useful. Better to wait till we find out for sure after an investigation, court verdict etc.
Remember the girl who was killed 3 years back on way to Ahmedabad – she WAS a terror group member. It was certain after 4-5 days as there was enough proof. Nobody complained afterwards.
Their is one police force in this country, which seems to have complete freedom from stupid politicians….GUJARAT POLICE.
I have watched GUJARAT for a very long time and I can see the changes.
GIVE THE COPS THEIR SPACE TO WORK AND THEY WILL DELIVER…
Offstumped PM candidate – L.K. Advani, during his North-East visit stated that he was a secular person – suggesting that he was in the habit of taking a position as per the places he visits.
He said this, in Shillong where Christians are present in substantial numbers. He becomes pro-Church in Meghalaya and when he visited Pakistan, he became pro-Jinnah. This reflects his and his party’s crooked mentality !
His contempt for Manmohan Singh emerges from his “loser mentality” – who gives him serious “inferiority complex”… whenever the people of India and across the globe praise him !
Pakistan lover L.K.Advani once again proved that the historic N-deal sealed by Manmohan Singh is good for the country when his ideological compatriot – Pakistan PM Yousuf Raza Gilani on Thursday demanded a civilian nuclear agreement with the United States after Washington signed a similar deal with arch-rival India.
With BJP’s leadership in his hands – BJP’s chances are all but sealed for the next 5 years !!
ROW, you are so funny!!
Pakistan loving — Even you know that its not true.
Also dont you agree with what LKA said in Shillong. It only shows he can take independent stand on issue.
Their is not even 1 cent of doubt that BJP is not coming back in next election.
Hello Ramu,
>>We should not defend the terrorists, and we should support the cops, right?
Right.
>>how we know for sure that they are terrorists?
Because we support the cops because they are tasked with protecting us, we believe that they took the right judgement call in our interest. On the other hand we don’t believe “human rights activists”, because being the overground supporters of underground terrorists, they have a hidden agenda that aligns with that of the terrorists.
There are lots of events happening in the world everyday, comrade Ramu, that we do not have first-hand knowledge of. When we take a stand on them, we ought to apply reasonable criteria. “Cops are crooks, human rights ‘activists’ are angels” is not a reasonable starting premise; in fact in India the opposite is true, because the first premise is also the premise of Islamists and closet terrorism sympathizers.
Hence: cops did right, unless proved otherwise; and Shabnam Hashmi and gang are lying, unless proved otherwise.
@ Ot
By your logic, I am an overground supporter of terrorists too.
What I say is, cops are known for getting things wrong more often than they get right. Human rights activists’ main work happens in areas unseen where they are the hep to a lot of people who have no way to fight the system.
Cops do get stuff right, and some highly visible ‘human rights activists’ often get stuff wrong. But they are really called the wrong name, their are campaigners.
My problem really is with the name. The ones whom you call human rights activists are people who have gone overboard, and therefore become campaigners. The real human rights activists do amazing work, and joining them to help the abused (no religion there) is one of the most satisfying things. The hardcore leftie ones are few.
Taking a stand on stuff we do not have substantial info on is dangerous; I don’t know where you live. But even hardcore right-wingers in India do not make such statements blindly from what I know. They would say, yes, we are happy that they were killed, if they were not terrorists, they would have been, maybe the cops were wrong, still we dont care, its a good answer back to the terrorists.
Face to face, even an RSS leader no one would stake their reputation on it. I am sure not even Advani or Modi would say that they WERE terrorists for sure.
So the questions about the encounter are great, and scrutiny is what keeps everyone in check in a democracy.
Unless we believe that ‘all of them’ are terrorists and anyone of them dying is enough retribution.
***
Btw, Modi says this today:
Porbandar: Gujarat Chief Minister Narendra Modi on Thursday said the solutions to the most pressing problems of mankind — global warming and terrorism — can be found in the Gandhian ideology. (Ibnlive.com)
Comrade Ramu,
>>By your logic, I am an overground supporter of terrorists too.
If you’re giving credence to the lies of “human rights activists” like Hashmi — who are actually Islamic extremists — you’ll obviously be one; why would I mince words about it?
>>cops are known for getting things wrong more often than they get right. Human rights activists’ main work happens in areas unseen where they are the hep to a lot of people who have no way to fight the system.
You are wrong Comrade Ramu. Cops are known to eliminate terrorists and protect innocent lives if there is no political interference in their work siding with terrorists; whereas “human rights actvists” are known to conduct propaganda to protect terrorists. That’s why, you’ll notice, the latter refuse to be accountable to anyone.
>>The real human rights activists do amazing work
I haven’t seen any; but cops do amazing work too.
>>Taking a stand on stuff we do not have substantial info on is dangerous;
Why?
And thus even by your logic, human rights activists are dangerous. They took the stand that Modi was guilty, without substantial info — but look at what the Nanavati Commission found after a substantial investigation?
>>even an RSS leader no one would stake their reputation on it.
Far from it. Fact of the matter is that secretly even other “human rights” outfits don’t believe those making wild claims about the Delhi shoot-out.
>>scrutiny is what keeps everyone in check in a democracy
That’s a good point. I think legislation needs to be passed to bring “human rights” outfits under institutional scrutiny; to make them accountable to Indians; to reveal their sources of funding; and to weed out the overground supporters of terrorism. Then perhaps we may get to recognize those outfits which do “amazing work”.
I remember pig a man wrestling a pig in mud, he was sick of the pig coming to his house and spreading the filth. He wanted to stop it so one day decided to wrestle it. After wrestling an hour with the pig, the man realised that the only person enjoying that wrestling and the filth was- you guessed right, the pig.
rgds,
fanne
There’s no doubt that local level law enbforcement needs structural remedies.
What’s objectionable though is clubbing the obvious (the above statement) with something obscure (‘not everyone killed in an encounter is a terrorist’) to lend legitimacy to non-sequiters (‘Hence, the jamia students shot dead aren’t terrorists’).
The same HR/kkkampainers folk meanwhile are nowhere to be found in Nandigram and the villages in Chattisgarh and jharkhand where maoist comrades are spreading a terror that would horrify anybody. In fact, by lumping mud on the police there, they further provide covering fire for the real terrorists.
Its nice and dandy to say, ‘let a 100 guilty go free but never let even 1 innocent be wrongly punished’ etc etc. Problem is those guilty freed are punishing a 1000 innocents later on. Evidence of guilt, powers of detention etc have to be made realistic.
” think legislation needs to be passed to bring “human rights” outfits under institutional scrutiny; to make them accountable to Indians; to reveal their sources of funding; and to weed out the overground supporters of terrorism. ”
Does the RTI act allow public audit of the funds of “social audit(ors)”? Shouldn’t transparency cut both ways? I’ve never seen any “Human Rights” type asking for complete transparency of NGOs. Funny…they want auditing rights on everyone but themselves.
I have to agree with Ramu.
The law enforcement in India is such that one needs Human RIghts ACtivists else the police will arrest all and sundry for extortion and that is the truth.
Even the US has ACLU and human rihgts activists. It is a balancing act. Some cops get it wrong and some human rights activists get it wrong. Can’t through the bvaby out with the bathwater. These are all the checks and balances in a democracy and are essential
The bigger issue in India is poor training and accountability of cops and the entire bureaucratic set up.
And to all those who want to change the system I suggest join it and change it. If you don’t buy the biased human rights activists become an unbiased human rights activist. If you don’t like the political system join it and change it
For all those who want the BJP to come to power, please campaign for the BJP instead of just talking on this blog. Approach the local office in your city and campaign for them. You can do that overseas too. Make sure as many people as possible vote
If you are pissed off with Christian conversion, go to the slums and serve the poor. Teach people the Gita.
Only through this activism can we change the country
No reform is coming. Because, Vote bank has far more importance.
Here is a very improtant article dug inside TOI’s national page. THIS SHD BE HEADLINE OF OUR MEDIA FOR NEXT SEVEN DAYS.
POLITICIANS ARE UNWILLING TO STOP THINGS LIKE ILLEGAL CATTLE TRADE- BECAUSE THOSE WHO CONTROL THIS TRADE FUND ALL PARTIES EXCEPT BJP.
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/India/Illegal_cattle_trade_funding_terror/articleshow/3554048.cms
Ramu, Nishka, you are putting your weights behind cops failure to uphold law and order in the right and proper manner.
OK. But the cops are the one who are risking their lives in unearthing terrorists attempts to upset the average man’s life, they go after ‘live’ encounter with the terrorists, they go after diffusing ‘live’ bombs, etc. After gathering and analysing all available information, they put the charge and accuse
the persons involved.
On the contrary, what proof have armchair Human Rights activits to negate the theory of the cops and accuse the accusor?
@ J
One thing does not negate the other. Cops risk their lives and get killed by criminals and naxals and terrorists. They also extort and sometimes kill innocent innocent people too.
Asking for proof, evidence from everyone concerned is only a wise thing to do. Like Nishka said (she is not an overground supporter, you just have to go through her past comments in this blog to be sure
) It is a balancing act. One thing right does not mean the other thing is right too.
If cops sometimes do a good job, it does not mean they always do, and sometimes end up worse that criminals. Also, just because cops killed these Jamia students, I would not assume they are terrorists. I would not assume they are NOT terrorists either.
What proof – I have seen both sides debating this on TV. I was not convinced by either side. One believes that cops are never right, while the other believes that anyone who questions cops are terrorist supporters. (Time to escape the country like some of you I think!
)
The vast majority of human rights activists are doing a good job – some do a shoddy job, and they are the ones we see all the time. Some do it out of genuine reasons and real doubt about the police, some do it for publicity, some because of a misplaced idea that minorities are not to be blamed, and some surely because they have sympathies for the terrorists. But I am too ignorant to take a hardcore stance against the cops or activists on this issue.
The lack of trust in each other is worrying. I don’t like Modi, but I am willing to give him the benefit of doubt as of now. Nothing is as simple as it seems. On the other hand, the polarization might soon lead to a total breakdown I fear.
Hey has anyone of you watched the movie/documentary called ‘Zeitgeist’.Do watch it,its available on google video or youtube or u can watch it on its website itself.It has very interesting things to prove wrong like the very existence of jesus christ,it says the story of existence of jesus is being plagiarised from various pagan religions including hinduism.I was completely astound after watching it..Its second part is gonna be releasing today.Watch it for free on its website.
I fully agree with ramu and let us ban INDIAN POLICE.
Let Human Right Activities be appointed as Indian Police.
But Ramu are u not worried that Secular People elected the Secular Govt of UPA and they HAVE “Communalise” Indian Police.
How can this SECULAR government can Kill “Innocent,Educated Young,Peace loving Muslim” thru their own Police force.
WE MUST WARN this SECULAR Government and be told to control their Police Force as we can afford Few more Bomb Blast BUT definately NOT Encounter of INNOCENT MUSLIM.
MAY GOD GIVE PEACE TO THE SOUL OF ARIF,ATIF etc who were Killed by Indian Police.
WE REQUEST JAMIA UNIVERSITY VC to announce Award for YOUTH every year in the Memory of those Killed by Delhi police.
jAMIA VC should also organise SEMINAR every year where ALL youth can pay Homage to our Innocent youth.
We also request our Secular HRD Minister to declare “YOUTH DAY” in memory of those Innocent Youth killed in an encounter by Delhi Police.
A trust (similar to Rajiv Gandhi Trust”) should be made and Fund must be given by our Secular Govt(Initial 100 crore) where Money would be spent on the Families of those Who had been exploited or killed by our Communal Force.
PEOPLE like Javed Akhtar,Shabana Azmi, Teesta, Arundhati should be appointed as Trustee of that Trust.
I request RAMU being a Real Human Right activist to take up this matter with our Secular Government so that it can be implemented at earliest otherwise Anger in Muslim Community will increase and in that ANGER they may Vote for Communal BJP which in turn will destroy our Social Fabric,Secularism,Integrity.
Ramu,
You just make a lot of assertions without feelign any burden of proof .. I think you slip into this sermonizing/speechifying mode when you know that logic is not on your side. Let us contrast these two:
>>Cops risk their lives and get killed by criminals and naxals and terrorists. They also extort and sometimes kill innocent innocent people too.
>>The vast majority of human rights activists are doing a good job – some do a shoddy job, and they are the ones we see all the time
Your denigration of cops, and plug for “human rights activists” may go well with Islamists and communists, but it doesn’t pass muster with reasonable people.
Commie/Islamist “human rights activists” strategy is to throw filth at law enforcement, and then act as if the burden of proof is on the latter. Sad to see you — a man after my own heart — adopting the same tactic. If your rabble-rousing Islamic rights activists (eg: Hashmi) have issues with only one cop getting killed by terrorists in Delhi encounter, I suggest that they file PIL’s in courts instead of throwing mud on cops. The law will take its course. Meanwhile, let us salute Inspector Sharma who laid down his life to eliminate two terrorist vermin — compelling even closest Islamists like Mushirul Hasan of JMI to throw their ‘liberal’ mask aside.
Why blame cops alone ? I don’t say all the cops are clean, but at the same time majority of them are. Compared to an other sectors, police force do not fare badly. The working environment, pay packet, living conditions etc. are pathetic. They have to do long hours. It naturally brings all the bad things in them. But we cannot throw the baby with the bath water. We have to cleanse the entire system. But what we see only blame game.
We have to liberate the law and order administration from the clutches of politics. We know what has happened with Bofors. We know what is happening with the Sister Abhaya case in Kerala. People know what the CBI has done in these cases. In the Sister Abhaya case they got 3 CDs from the Bangalore Lab and presented only a doctored one to the Court. The Court got the three CDs directly from the lab. The CBI got egg on its face. Political interference is the root cause of police getting bad name.
It is not necessary that all rights activists are wrong. But it is the height of rights activism to support the likes of Veerappan and criminals like him. It is necessary that the right activists should also be made accountable. It is easy to throw dirt. Definitely something will stick. These activists are not even sparing our soldiers defending our country in the difficult terrain. They too have a family. They too are one among us. The criminals should be punished. But throwing dirt on persons/police/soldiers with a view to tarnishing their image cannot be tolerated. These rights activists should be MADE ACCOUNTABLE. It is not necessary to curtail their activities, but if they are doing it willfully they should be hauled over the coal.
KPS Gill – (read the entire article)
http://www.outlookindia.com/full.asp?fodname=20081003&fname=kps&sid=1
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