Some excerpts from Mr. Faisal writing in Indian Muslims, as well as Offstumped response:
I take here a few paragraphs to comment on two stories by Offstumped on this matter because it very typically goes into the running around the issue mode ………
Its good to have right of center, center, and left of center opinions until they highlight various facets to take us to the truth. But if any ?opinion? goes in rationalizing injustices it can be only called right of right and that has another name: extremism ……….
Its good to have right of center, center, and left of center opinions until they highlight various facets to take us to the truth. But if any ?opinion? goes in rationalizing injustices it can be only called right of right and that has another name: extremism ………
Why all responsibility gets back to Indian Muslims? They are doing it and speaking out in various ways. Why not the same people who shout do their bit by taking this advice. Give space to the voices of Indian Muslims when they speak against radicalization instead of saying that why don?t they speak. Many are speaking but to listen you have to yourself stop speaking and listen to them. Secondly speak for them. Why are not the right leaning columnists questioning that Sri Krishna report be tabled? A Bal Thakerey shamelessly says that Mumbai will burn. Does the injustice radicalize people or bringing out the truth radicalize them?
How can you move on from 2002 if you cannot even acknowledge what happenned then? Why was Parzania banned in Gujarat? That was not 2002. Why is Aamir Khan banned in Gujarat? This is not 2002. Why were the channels showing the sting operation off air? This did not happen in 2002. Has Gujarat really moved on from 2002 or moving to 1002??
Offstumped Response to Mr. Faisal as posted in a comment on Indian Muslims:
Mr. Faisal – Have read your critique of Offstumped posts. Offstumped could have accorded them a semblance of credibility to merit a reasoned response had your piece here atleast got its facts right. You claim 2000 Muslims deaths and thousands of rape with neither a credible source to back it up nor direct evidence if you maybe in posession of any that seems to elude most others. With such exaggerated claims it is hard for Offstumped to take this piece seriously. Your angst is understandable but this debate cannot be conducted with emotions and hyperbole. Either you present facts that are beyond reasonable doubt or you challenge facts that have been presented. Doing neither doesnt really further a meaningful public debate here.
Filed under: Uncategorized
My comments on Faisal’s blog is noted below (frankly I think it might not be published) so I post it here.
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This is just nuts !!! The atmosphere is just too vitiated to have a reasonable debate, thanks to all the communist propaganda machinery. One propaganda cites another propaganda machinery as their basis (FACTS). A LETTER written by a faculty in a godforsaken university becomes the basis of another propaganda. Will this ever stop? Has anybody written a letter on Kashmir, on Bangladesh, on Pakistan, on Afghanistan ( I dont care much about whats happening outside India – until someone starts comparing 6 million dead jews to 600 dead muslims). 700 muslims dead in Gujarat (undoubtedly a shameless act ) “along with 300 dead hindus” – and the whole media is up in arms against Modi – tens of thousands dead in Kashmir is a passing reference, so is 1984. The whole “educated muslim” community is shouting “why blame all muslims for the acts of a few” – totally ignoring the FACT that invariably all of the “few terrorists” have just one common thing – a religion. Now, do I need to name the religion ?
One must be a real nutjob to go thru blogs like these that defend islamofacism (although very covertly). But, I would like to end with a quote from Sam Harris’ “End of Faith”
http://books.google.com/books?id=Lr8ytqlY9NgC&dq=end+of+faith+sam+harris&pg=PP1&ots=GptkCWpiV3&sig=iZ-37p3YDQJklg9KHWASC6d7Rmg
Frankly, I dont blame the uneducated poor muslims who are taught to hate in the madrassas so much, as much as I loathe acts of “educated muslims” who covertly and overtly (S.A.R.Gilani) supports those deeds. And those includes the writer of this blog.
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My comments on Faisal’s blog is noted below (frankly I think it might not be published) so I post it here.
This is just nuts !!! The atmosphere is just too vitiated to have a reasonable debate, thanks to all the communist propaganda machinery. One propaganda cites another propaganda machinery as their basis (FACTS). A LETTER written by a faculty in a godforsaken university becomes the basis of another propaganda. Will this ever stop? Has anybody written a letter on Kashmir, on Bangladesh, on Pakistan, on Afghanistan ( I dont care much about whats happening outside India – until someone starts comparing 6 million dead jews to 600 dead muslims). 700 muslims dead in Gujarat (undoubtedly a shameless act ) “along with 300 dead hindus” – and the whole media is up in arms against Modi – tens of thousands dead in Kashmir is a passing reference, so is 1984. The whole “educated muslim” community is shouting “why blame all muslims for the acts of a few” – totally ignoring the FACT that invariably all of the “few terrorists” have just one common thing – a religion. Now, do I need to name the religion ?
One must be a real nutjob to go thru blogs like these that defend islamofacism (although very covertly). But, I would like to end with a quote from Sam Harris’ “End of Faith”
http://books.google.com/books?id=Lr8ytqlY9NgC&dq=end+of+faith+sam+harris&pg=PP1&ots=GptkCWpiV3&sig=iZ-37p3YDQJklg9KHWASC6d7Rmg
Frankly, I dont blame the uneducated poor muslims who are taught to hate in the madrassas so much, as much as I loathe acts of “educated muslims” who covertly and overtly (S.A.R.Gilani) supports those deeds. And those includes the writer of this blog.
FACTS SPEAK FOR THEMSELVES
http://intellibriefs.blogspot.com/2007/10/facts-speak-for-themselves-godhra-and.html
http://intellibriefs.blogspot.com/2007/10/gujarat-riots-and-sikh-riots-quick.html
I’ve posted at that Website ,let’s see whethger they have guts to post that or remove that .
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1. The country has witnessed 2500 riots between 1950 and 1990. Godhra city had communal riots in 1947, 52, 59, 61, 65, 67, 72, 74, 80, 83, 89 and 90
2. MODI DID EXCELLENT JOB BY CALLING ARMY WITHIN 24 hr . Unlike Sikh riots after 72hr
Within 24 Hr .
Note : Indian Army was Eye-Ball-to Eye ball with Pakistan at the border after parliament attack . Risking security at the border NDA government moved the army from Border to Gujarat to bring down the riots
3. POLICE SHOT DEAD Both Hindus and also Muslims
4. MORE (HINDUS) PREVENTIVE ARRESTS WERE MADE
a) QUARTER OF KILLED WERE HINDUS
FOR 2) 3) 4)
http://intellibriefs.blogspot.com/2007/10/gujarat-riots-deployment-of-army.html
5.
5. Media and Leftists are molesting Muslim brains with distorted numbers .
– NUMBER OF MUSLIMS KILLED IN RIOTS GROW OVER A PERIOD
2003 –
Let’s us take a look at the article “India’s Muslim Time Bomb” written by Pankaj Mishra , dated September 15, 2003 , where he quoted 2000 as his favorite Number for riots .
QUOTE
“And early last year, more than 2,000 Muslims were killed in the western Indian state of Gujarat in a series of attacks by mobs ”
2007
——-
***Yoginder Sikand works with the Centre for Jawaharlal Nehru Studies, Jamia Millia Islamia, New Delhi
SAYS in his article =– 3000 MUSLIMS KILLED
QUOTE
“Exemplifying the total lack of justice in Gujarat, not a single Hindu has been charged under the same deadly law in Gujarat, despite the deaths of over 3000 Muslims at the hands of Hindu gangs in 2002 ”
SOURCE: http://countercurrents.org/sikand041007.htm
HERE ARE THE CORRECT FIGURES
“254 Hindus and 790 Muslim (including those killed in Police firing) were killed in the post Godhra riots of 2002. ”
A statement read out in Rajya Shaba by SECULAR GOVERNMENT
——————————————
LINK TO RAJYA SABHA Q& A — http://164.100.24.219/rsq/quest.asp?qref=100652
GOVERNMENT OF INDIA
MINISTRY OF HOME AFFAIRS
RAJYA SABHA
UNSTARRED QUESTION NO 5209
ANSWERED ON 11.05.2005
PERSONS KILLED IN GUJARAT RIOTS .
5209. SHRI R.K. ANAND
Will the Minister of HOME AFFAIRS be pleased to state:-
(a) how many people have been killed in Gujarat riots after Godhra incident and of which community;
(b) how many persons are missing, injured and rendered widows, orphaned;
(c) how much amount of compensation to each individual have been paid by Government; and
(d) whether Government published the said data of these people district-wise as recommended by the NHRC?
ANSWER
MINISTER OF STATE IN THE MINISTRY OF HOME AFFAIRS
(SHRI SRIPRAKASH JAISWAL)
(a): As per information made available by the State Government of Gujarat, 254 Hindus and 790 Muslim (including those killed in Police firing) were killed in the post Godhra riots of 2002.
(b): As per available information 223 persons have been reported missing, 2548 persons sustained injuries, 919 persons were rendered widows and 606 children were orphaned during the riots.
(c): The rates of compensation paid by the State Government of Gujarat are as under: An amount of Rs 1.5 lakhs has been paid as ex-gratia to the next of kin of each person killed.
In the case of those injured the rates of payment to each individual are as under: Rs.5,000 each to those with upto 10% disability; Rs.15,000 each to those with 10% to 30 % disability; Rs.25,000 each to those with 30% to 40% disability; Rs.50,000 each to those with more than 40% disability and permanent incapacitation.
In addition, relief has been extended by the State Government to the victims of the riots under the following heads:
i) Cash doles and assistance for house-hold kits;
ii) Food grains to Below Poverty Line families in riot affected areas;
iii) Housing Assistance;
iv) Rebuilding earning assets;
v) Rehabilitation of Small business;
vi) Assistance to Industries/shops and hotels;
vii) Interest subsidy on loans to affected units;
viii) Insurance paid to the affected; ix) Rehabilitation of orphaned children and widows; x) Integrated Child Development Scheme services to riot affected children, pregnant and lactating mothers;
xi) Widows` Pension, etc. The State Government has further informed that a total expenditure of Rs. 204.62 crores has been incurred towards relief and rehabilitation measures.
(d) : The State Government has informed that they have published the data as recommended by NHRC.
My few cents…
I sympathize with Faizal when he airs his frustration at Justice being not done to the victims. I think they have been subjected to riots twice. Once on the streets and now in the courts …
I agree that BJP should stop pretending as though nothing happened in Gujarat. For heaven’s sake, you are the second biggest party in the country! Besides even BJP’s worst enemies know that Gujarat riots haunt the conscience of the BJP. Why not just say that in words and be done with it?
I think Faizal is being dishonest in portraying the reaction of the media and blogs on the Gujarat riots. They have mostly been very critical of the riots and have consistently demanded justice. The few posts that have gone against the tide also serve some purpose. The least of all is preventing the exaggeration of the crimes. And why talk of democracy, when you don’t want to hear anything that displeases you?
I think Faizal is wrong in criticizing the BJP and Offstumped for digging motives behind the latest Tehelka expose. Only naive people will claim that Tehelka didn’t want to hurt BJP politically. While Tehelka indeed has the right to take such a stand, the BJP and its supporters also have the right to respond to that.
As per information made available by the State Government of Gujarat, 254 Hindus and 790 Muslim (including those killed in Police firing) were killed in the post Godhra riots of 2002.
So the Sanghis want us to believe the nos given by the Butcher of Gujarat to the Central govt on the riots? Lol!
One question always pop up when it is about believing the number of dead in riots, famine, floods, etc? Isnt it generally accepted that the unofficial figures are more trustworthy?
RS,
Ok surrender, since “Sanghis” are not to be believed, then I think one must go by “Congress jerks” like you, so how many died. One million, Two million. Just regurgitate whatever is stuck in your bowels.
Gaurav,
How dare u call me a Congressi. I am a TDP supporter from Andhra Pradesh. We don’t go around killing people in the name of religion like u Sanghis do.
It is a pity that for u Sanghis anyone who oppose the BJP becomes a Congressi automatically. Pathetic. Just grow up.
RS
Then your logic applies to all 2500 riots that took place during Congress regime –between 1950 and 1990 . You guys should stick to one figure , at the beginning you all said 2000 in 2002 , now that number raised to 3000 in 2007 . God know what will be next year .
Teesta Setalvad should produce the list of remaining 1000 or 2000 people so that their next to kin can claim some compensation .
Oh dear, so RS you feel it is all right to abuse yossarian and others but get your knickers in twist when love is reciprocated. And ideology of TDP !! You got to be kidding. Unless of course, if by ideology you mean selling out to the highest bidder. Of course some people would call this being a two penny huckster.
Of course you hate “Sanghis” (I am not a Sanghi, they are too moderate for my tastes), because they refuse to bend over and crawl before secularists, who if they could, would have handed over Telugus as happily to Razakars as they did hand over Kashmiri Pundits to Jihadis.
So, kindly excuse if “some” Hindus refuse to buy snake oil of secularism.
Nagesh,
Yes, I mean for all riots, flood, famine, etc. Never trust official figures. They are always fudged.
Gaurav,
Looks like u wanna have a fight with me. Anyways here is my reply.
Firstly ,just point out to me where I abused Yossarin and others. On the contrary I think u r the one who is getting abusive. Just look at ur comments.
Secondly, it is clear u have no idea about TDP or Telugus. Yes, it is a regional party but that doesnt reduce its importance. After all BJP could only win seats with the help of TDP in AP. Without TDP, BJP is zero in AP. Also dont forget if it was not for TDP’s support NDA wouldnt have completed its full term.
TDP was found to safeguard the self-respect of Telugus by the late NTR. Every self-respecting Telugu who is proud of his/her glorious heritage votes for the TDP.
If Indians are proud of their IITs and its soaftware Industry then it is thanks to the Telugus. FYI we fill up the IITS every year and we run the Software Industry. As for prosperity of the Telugus, I will give two small examples. In AP more than 80% of the state has cable TV and electricity is 24hrs a day in most towns/cities. Just in which part of ur BIMARU states do u have anything like this?
If u r not a Sanghi as u claim then why get agitated on my comments?
Oh dear RS, so you showed your chauvinism. Frankly speaking if you think you have nothing but courteous on this blog, then frankly speaking you need some help.
And since when TDP became representative of All Telugus ? I am talking about TDP, stick to what I talked, please resist the temptation of giving your despicable twist.
Gaurav,
So u are the one with the blog. I thought I was replying to some other Gaurav.
I was not showing any chauvinism but just trying to educate an ignorant person on TDP and Telugus.
I am asking u again to point out to me where I abused anyone here on Yossarin’s blog.
I never said TDP is for all Telugus. Read my previous comment again.
//
It is a pity that for u Sanghis anyone who oppose the BJP becomes a Congressi automatically. Pathetic. Just grow up.
//
Same as any one who does not oppose modi becomes a “sanghi” for you! Pathetic indeed!!
Shankar,
Just educate me who other than Sanghis love the Butcher of Gujarat?
RS,
I will be glad to but first you please educate me about the fact on which university has bestowed the Title “Butcher of Gujarat” upon modi ? a democratically elected CM of the most prosperous state in India.
“Yes, I mean for all riots, flood, famine, etc. Never trust official figures. They are always fudged . ”
My answer to above is , either you should come up with accurate figures proof or accept these numbers .
————
“Just educate me who other than Sanghis love the Butcher of Gujarat?”
Let me educate you Proud son of Telugu :
First let me point some instances and quotes who love “Butcher of Gujarat” , and then I would love to educate you that the metaphor “Butcher of Gujarat” doesn’t apply to Modi , if it does then it applies to all CM’s of Gujarat .
2005
New Delhi-based Rajiv Gandhi Foundation, headed by Congress president Sonia Gandhi. said in 2005 –Modi’s governance as the best in the country
–Gujarat as the number 1 state in economic freedom.
2007
“It`s stupid if you are not in Gujarat: Ratan Tata“ ( Vibrant Gujarat)
In his key-note address, ICICI Bank chief K. V. Kamath praised Modi’s ‘pro-active’ role in guiding the state’s economy. More like a CEO’ — (Vibrant Gujarat)
Mukesh Ambani’s speech at Vibrant Gujarat
January 12, 2007
” I would like to express my sincere appreciation to Shri Narendrabhai and his Government for building on the momentum gained over the previous two events. This event is now broader based in terms of participation. It is a reflection of the accelerated growth of the state. Gujarat is blessed to have a talented and committed team of administrators who are passionate about sustaining our State’s pre-eminent position. The event of ‘Vibrant Gujarat’ is an example of their foresight.”
**** (BUTCHER ?) of Gujarat****
1. Suppose if he is butcher of Gujarat , can that applies to the CM Heten Desai for 1969 gujarat riots ? Godhra is not Gandhi gram , it is a notorious for riots it had communal riots in 1947, 52, 59, 61, 65, 67, 72, 74, 80, 83, 89 and 90 . In the case of the ’69 GOADHRA riots, Indira Gandhi and Hitendra Desai were not blamed, why is Narendra Modi blamed? DO you know this fact that the country has witnessed 2500 riots between 1950 and 1990 — PERIOD RULED BY CONGRESS IN MOST OF THE STATES ?
2. FYI — According to official data, Gujarat witnessed 443 major communal incidents between 1970 and 2002.For instance in Godhra itself in 1985 curfew remained imposed for about a year. Communal disturbance in 1985 continued for more than five months from February to July 1985 .
**** You ALL blame MODI FOR NOT taking enough measures to protect citizens .
This is a patent lie , he did everything in his power to prevent loss of life and property
1. Army Deployment — Called Army within 24 hr , when Indian Army was Eye-Ball-to Eye ball with Pakistan at the border after parliament attack . WHich led to become defensive rather offensive.
COMPARE THIS TO OTHER RIOTS : In 1969 rioting started on 18.09.69 and army was called in on 21.09.69. 12.In 1985 the riots started on 15.04.85 and the army was called in on 16.04.85.
2. Police Firing – 170 persons killed in Police Firing which included both communities , 93 are muslims and 77 hindus.
3. Preventive arrests — the statistics show that the number of hindus arrested is much higher — 17,947 as against 3,616 muslims
DO YOU REMEMBER HYDERABAD RIOTS ???
Ex- chief minister of Andhra Pradesh, Chenna Reddy, and Andhra opposition leader N.T. Rama Rao had said that the BJP had had no role in the Hyderabad riots. That M.J. Akbar, Ex-spokesman of the Congress fact-finding team (some called it a fault-finding team), kept on blaming the BJP, only added to the widespread suspicion that a Congress faction had fomented the riots in order to make Chenna Reddy step down and make room for a Chief Minister more agreeable to the party leadership. The same explanation has also been given for the October riots in Karnataka, which had equally forced a Congress Chief Minister to step down.
The hardest thing to explain is the glaringly evident which everybody had decided not to see.
-Ayn Rand
Here everybody refers to RS and the likes in particular. So, nagesh please do not waste any more time and bytes.
modi rules !
Shankar,
No University has confirmed that title on the modern day Nero. I am calling him the Butcher of Gujarat. U have a problem with that?
RS ,
Chandrababu is butcher of Farmers , do you have problem with that ?
Nagesh,
No way anyone can come up with accurate figures of human loss in riots, floods, famine, etc. The way u r free to believe those figures that convince u, I am also free to believe any figure that convinces me. I go by the unoffical whatever the nos are.
U want me to believe all that modern-day Nero (MDN)”praise” from business men who are just bothered about profits and nothing else??? Lol!
FYI Gujarat was always shining b’coz of its entrepreunrial people. Thats long before MDN arrived on the scene.
FYI the riots were no three day affair. It lasted more than two months. Every day the media reported sporadic incidents of riots from various parts of Gujarat. u can check this fact from various newspaper archives. If u want visual footage u can enquire at Aaj Tak or NDTV.
See, I dont hold any brief for Congressis. U are free to call them any name u want. I have no problem.
Chandrababu is butcher of Farmers , do you have problem with that ?
Nagesh,
No, after all this is a free country! Call anyone what u want.
after all this is a free country! Call anyone what u want.
aye aye sir!
//
If u want visual footage u can enquire at Aaj Tak or NDTV.
//
Now a days they are showing scenes from parzania, which they think accurately depicts what they beleive had happened in Gujarat during 2002 riots.
//
FYI Gujarat was always shining b’coz of its entrepreunrial people. Thats long before MDN arrived on the scene.
//
Godhra had communal riots long before modi arrived.
Since partition the place has had communal riots as if its some kumbha mela festival.
From nagesh post earlier in the same thread
//
The country has witnessed 2500 riots between 1950 and 1990. Godhra city had communal riots in 1947, 52, 59, 61, 65, 67, 72, 74, 80, 83, 89 and 90
//
Why blame only modi? with your logic please blame all the chief ministers starting from 1947 till date, as nodern day mero, Gutcher of Bujarat, etc.,
What ever it may be Chandrababu is a butcher of Farmers , dalal of big businesses. TDP was given as Dowry to Chandrababu .
Shankar,
If u want the courts to call all those former CMs under whom riots occured Modern Day Nero, then pls file a PIL in the SC.
Nagesh,
thats a good beginning. If u have more feel free to add provided Yossarin is not bothered about the quality of the comments on his blog.
RS
NO COURT IN INDIA CALLED MODI “Modern Day Nero” . May be people ike you and leftists TWIST a REUTERS news piece to hilt and brain wash that it is the COURT that said that . Similarly , NEWTON LAW , which MODI never said and the reporter who wrote was not in the conference , Shamless TOI work .
http://www.expressindia.com/news/fullstory.php?newsid=82097
This report says “The Supreme Court compared Modi to Roman Emperor Nero, remembered in popular legend as playing his lyre while Rome burned.”
CAN ANY ONE SHOW Supreme Court has mentioned this ??? MODI CHALLENGED KARAN THAPAR ON THIS .
Nagesh…the supreme court has passed severe strictures on NM not once but thrice.
Modi is hiding behind technicalities. By asking from Thapar if it was in writing. He knows it well enough that the courts give verdicts in writing, not observations. These observations are made during the ongoing trial process, which are oral & not written.
The press/media is the one who picks it up & reports it and that becomes the record. So he is trying to be smart. But Thapar immediately cut him off saying these are not verdicts so it is not in written. Modi probably sensed this guy was more prepared than he had imagined. And hence “Paani” and retreat !!
Mr RS whatever be the case massada shall not fall again. We will not lose our freedom and self respect on the altar of wooly headed sickularism, need be we shall fight fire with fire. Just as we Punjabis did in 1947 ignoring whatever Gandhiji had to say.
Strength respects strength otherwise communities like ours end up in Hitlers gas chambers or Jihadi Bogeys of train in Godhra.
My salute to the martyrs of Godhra……
Would love to see them secular faces when Mr. Modi wins the gujarat elections, yet again, bet aaj tak/tehalka wont report that !
ALL you communali hindus and muslims listen.
OUR BLOOD IS THE SAME.
DO WE LOOK DIFFERENT FROM EACH OTHER?
TELL ME DOES A HINDU HAVE DIFFERENT PHYSICAL FEATURES THAN A MUSLIM
DOES HE SPEAK A LANGUAGE WHICH IS DIFFRENT FROM THAT OF A MUSLIM ?
AN EUROPEAN OR AN AFRICAN LOOKS MORE DIFFERENT, GO AND KILL THEM. ! THEY ARE DIFFERENT ! THEIR CULTURE IS DIFFERENT FROM US. OUR CULTURE IS INDIAN CULTURE. BOTH HINDUS AND MUSLIMS SHARE IT.
THE ONLY DIFFERENT THING BETWEEN A HINDU MAN AND A MUSLIM MAN IS PERHAPS THEIR PENIS.
BUT EVEN THAT CANNOT ALWAYS BE SEEN.
SO WHY THIS BLOODSHED NETWEEN PEOPLE WHO SHARE SO MANY CHARACTERISTICS ?
IF YOU WANT TO KILL , GO AND KILL A EUROPEAN OR AN AFRICAN ! THEY ARE MORE DIFFERENT THAN OUR MUSLIMS OR OUR HINDUS.
IF YOU WERE GIVEN A AK 47 AND GIVEN THE OPTION OF EITHER KILLING A PAKISTANI OR A EUROPEAN WHO WOULD YOU KILL ?
I WOULD HAVE KILLED THE EUROPEAN. I WILL NEVER KILL A HINDU.
BECAUSE HE IS SIMILAR TO ME .
Couldnt agree more with you abdul, the problem with India is not Muslims, its this gandhi-nehru-socialist-pseudosecular-communist-caste ridden- bullshit mentality of the congressi-communist-socialist alliance. A 1000 years of slavery, has made Indians mental-slaves. India is not being ruled by Indians, but by Thomas Macaulay and by british-fabian-socialism. It should have been Subhash chandra bose, NOT Gandhi. It should have been Vallabhai patel, NOT Nehru. It should have been common sense based on national interest, NOT blind-self-destructive-idealism. China got Mao, who did we get, stupid nehru. In order for India to progress, Congress-style politics of pseudo-secularism and casteism must be destroyed.