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based on Dharma, Liberalism and Nationalism

Tehelka expose on Gujarat Riots – Offstumped Reaction

Original post?recovered below but not the comments (apologies to Nitin, Nikhil, Jujung and Balaji amongst others). Also read Rohit for his take.?

Tarun Tejpal and his pack of “sting meisters” are at it again. This time in a brazen attempt at queering the pitch ahead of the Gujarat Polls. It is clear that the stakes in Gujarat are very high and there is a vast left wing conspiracy to do to Narendra Modi in 2007 what they failed to do back in 2002.

Beyond the headlines and the media hype Offstumped digs into the details of the Tehelka expose to expose it for what it is.

First a look at the actors in the so called expose that the Tehelka is claiming was captured from a spy camera.

Babu Bajrangi – in the entire script of the sting, this guy doesnt implicate anyone but himself in the riots. This guy is considered the most important witness in the sting. With FIRs already filed and Bajrangi identified as a key accused what is the surprise here ?

Rajendra Vyas – goes into great details of what he did in Godhra, again not a word directly implicating anyone but himself.

Ramesh Dave – chimes in on incidents on Godhra, implicates Rajendra Vyas and himself, not a word, despite being egged on by the Tehelka reporter, on directly attributing anything to Narendra Modi

Madan Chawal – first says he saw VHP leaders, then says he did not VHP leaders by name and then claims that later on he remembered that he probably saw Atul Vaid, Bharat Teli. Implicates himself in Gulbarg incidents nothing to say about anybody else.

Prahlad Raju – implicates himself in Gulbarg incidents. Is egged on by tehelka to implicate VHP and RSS. All he says that ‘Atul Vaid told me to move together”. Nothing more to say on anyone else.

Mangilal Jain – implicates himself in Gulbarg incidents. Is egged on by tehelka to implicate Atul Vaid and Bharat Teli, he merely mentions after consistent egging by the interviewer that an Inspector Erda told him he had 2 to 3 hours.

Prakash Rathod, Suresh Richard – Implicate themselves in Naroda Patiya. Not a word implicating anyone else, making passing references to Narendra Modi visiting the site of incidents

Dhimant Bhatt – The headlines says idea came from Modi, the detailed transcript says it was a meeting of local leaders but gives no names. This guy neither has a direct reference nor a direct statement to say on Modi or anybody else. Implicates himself.

Deepak Shah – Implicates himself and Dhimant, has nothing substantial to say except reeling out names of lawyers on the legal team.

Anil Patel – This guy does even better than the rest of them. Not only does he implicate himself but also implicates Congress workers. His 5 page sting transcript implicates people who are already accused and are out on bail. Has some hearsay conversations to report with Pravin Togadia nothing to suggest a conspiracy to riot, only suggestions on bailing out accused.

?All of them are accused and all of them implicated themselves and no one else directly. So that is tehelka for you !

Now for some more incredible claims – bombs and rocket launchers that were never used.

Haresh Bhatt – Godhra MLA and riot accused makes incredible claims of ordering guns and other weapons for other states. Hard to believe stuff given how many days it takes for any truck to arrive from distant Punjab or Uttar Pradesh. He just goes an adding states to his list – Bihar, MP.

Dhawal Jayanthi Patel – shows of a dynamite factory, makes tall claims, has nothing to say about even one specific incident where bombs were used.

Anil Patel – This is the most laughable of the transcripts, the interviewer puts words into his mouth with a single question and all he replies is to confirm yes there are dynamite factories which supply explosives to Ahmedabad.

Lot of sensational drivel about but none confirming a single incident where bombs were actually used. More bravado than anything else, what can one expect in “tehelka” !

The sensationalism of this expose can be best appreciated by examining how Babu Bajrangi’s remarks on Modi have been hyped and played up beyond what Tehelka’s own transcripts say.

They claim Modi congratulated Bajrangi at Naroda Patiya, the transcript has no direct accusation on Mod directly saying anything to Bajrangi. Then there are references to Mount Abu again the transcripts carry no such references.

The other big claim is that of the Government Counsel Arvind Pandya claiming to be complicit with the accused. The transcript however is far more mild in stark contrast to the headlines on live TV with the counsel merely says he will solve problems. The interviewer again eggs him with the same question. The last two paragraphs of the transcript are odd in that we are not told what was the question or the motivation to the reply that Tehelka has so dutifully reproduced to give the impression that he is in cahoots with the BJP and VHP. The counsel does more damage to himself implicating his role more than providing anything substantial on what anyone else had done.

The rest of the website is sensational drivel, regurgitating bits and pieces extracted from these transcripts with psychedlic fonts and images.

Watching the manner in which Headlines Today is running this story on live televisionwith clips from the movie Parzania ?to play up the horror, it just goes to highlight how out of control and irresponsible the sensationalism of ratings starved news channels has become.

With this coming together sensational media which is constantly on the look out to manufacture headlines and left wing radicals out to push a fictitious version of the truth the need for a Right of Center Media in India has once again been highlighted.

Offstumped Bottomline: Great fiction, good entertainment, politically not of much significance in a state like Gujarat which has shown in recent times that it would like to move on from 2002 and not reminded again of it. The Congress must be really worried about its prospects ……

POSTSCRIPT REJOINDER TO ROHIT’S POST:

Rohit has challenged what he calls indulgence of the Modi brand of politics and said that despite pursuing an agenda based on economic reforms and governance he can never be the mascot of Right of Center politics. There are two principal questions here. The first is legal and the second is moral and political. The legal question is easily answered. To date there is no hard evidence of criminal wrong doing to implicate Mr. Modi. The legal process is underway in the courts at various levels. If any evidence were to emerge and hold up in a court of law Offstumped will be the first to demand Mr. Modi to be punished. The second moral or political question can be answered in one of two ways. Mr. Modi out of his conscience expresses regrets for what happened, which he did as Offstumped pointed out in 2005 in an interview. The people of Gujarat either elect him or show him the door based on his record and actions ever since the riots. The people elected him once, but that is apparently not enough. Well we have another opportunity for the people to judge him on his record. If he is voted back we have to take it that he has been acquitted in the court of public opinion. If he is shown the door we will have to take it that Mr. Modi has failed to convince the people of Gujarat and he needs to reflect on his conscience and decide how he addresses the moral question. As regards to whether Mr. Modi can or cannot be the mascot. When a person no less than the high priestess of Left of Center Journalism, Sagarika Ghosh, goes on record in the Hindustan Times to say that only mass leaders like Narendra Modi can ensure economic reforms in a country like India one must sit up and reflect on it. Offstumped holds no brief for Mr. Modi and he will have to make his case to the people himself. However the following facts cannot be ignored. He has been hounded by by an extremely hostile media for the last 5 year. He has kept the focus of his campaign on governance and economic reforms. He has not resorted to emotive or populist issues. Every far right group in Gujarat has either turned hostile to him or has chosen to be neutral in the coming election. If all of this is not evidence of a right of center political agenda that keeps socio-cultural ideology outside of the realm of governance, then what is ?

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81 Responses

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  2. yossarin says:

    Nikhil – if you could copy paste again please in the spirit of good debate ?

  3. Sujoy says:

    Tehelka is there to make money ONLY, much like the Foreign-money-supported Eng. media (a.k.a. useful idiots), and it seems that they are good at duping us into believing all this crap.
    For those who has problem understanding genocide/holocaust, here’s http://www.hrcbm.org/

  4. Sanjeev says:

    Yossarin, ( Duplicating my comment from O3)

    A small story – There was once a local political strongman, a goonda politician in other words, who when told that his spoilt, drunk on power son had killed someone in drunken stupor, reacted ” Has anyone seen?” When told that noone had seen, he was relieved that it would not effect his poltical standing.

    What happened here? The guy had lost the sense of questioning his son on the grounds of right & wrong, good & bad, moral & immoral. His only concern was “How does it effect my poltical life?”

    I am sorry to say that your whole post is dedicated to analysing how the disgustingly inhuman revelations on TV will effect Modi’s political life. Whether there was sufficient ground to implicate Modi. And since you are convinced it wont, you go on to call it “good entertainment” ( A little insensitively in my opinion) Yes, Modi might win again, infact more so because of this expose….but then ….life goes on !!! Thats how insensitive we have become as a society?

    PS: Books can be “fiction”. Seeing is believing. Here we saw.

  5. yossarin says:

    Sanjeev – running clips of parzania without even putting a banner saying its from the film has to be treated as fiction. If they can run clips so brazenly without feeling the need to clarify one has to take the rest of the video cut and paste that leaves out half the questions with not just a pinch of salt but with a fistful. If Tehelka and HT were responsible and sensitive they would have done the victims and their kin a favor by doing a far better job of corroboration and facilitating the judicial process with evidence that is actionable. That they dont have actionable evidence is clear by the manner in which they commercialized this story by running it all night with commercial breaks thrown in.

  6. Sanjeev says:

    Yossarin, Yes i agree. You might want to see my new post on O3..inspired by yours here….wherein I have expressed my unhappiness over the way Aajtak treated the story.

    But the prime player here is not Aajtak. As I said in my post..if the Doctor hands you a diagnosis which indicates you have cancer, one cannot be pointing out at the boil on the Doctors hand to claim that you cant have cancer.

    Yes media is getting it wrong, modi haters are getting it wrong, modi lovers are getting it wrong because most…..are not looking at it from their own prejudiced angles and not from the angle of biggest religion – humanity.

  7. yossarin says:

    Sanjeev – the humanitarian angle had its relevance back when the wounds were fresh. The wounds have either healed or just been tucked away with new skin. Society has moved on. So unless there is anything substantial to add to the legal process with fresh actionabl evidence, this regurgitation of the horror serves neither a humanitarian purpose nor a legal purpose. Post the url to your piece I am sure others would like to check it out.

  8. Sanjeev says:

    Well, I guess you might disagree..but the perpetrator is still at large & worse in charge. And that is precisely what this tape proves. Which means either law or people have to ensure that the perpetrator is not in a position to repeat it again. Law is slow. And that is why these things keep resurfacing & there is no closure.

    Yeah..I know he is elected, people love him, there is great development. But……pardon me for not being happy about it. :)
    The link to my post …. here

    http://o3.indiatimes.com/sanjeev_/archive/2007/10/26/4795470.aspx#Comments

  9. Chandra says:

    “Gujarat having moved on is akin to saying Germany moved on after Jews genocide. Hitler too had a near total sway with Germans & phenomenal growth. Emergency was accompanied by maximum efficiency in independent India. It will be a sad reflection on society if this is just a normal routine occurence.”

    Really Nikhil? With this stupid comparison even people who take dim view of riots, and not just in Gujarat, ignore people like you.

    May be you should jump on train and look for detention sites and extermination camps sites among the rich and prospering Gujarati Muslims. May be you should move to a country like Cuba which has a permanent emergency. Either way it’s hard to take your stupidity and Tehelka’s made up lies (the quality of whose reporting is one or two tiers below the normally second tier reporting of Indian media in general), to make a point, seriously. Get that head out of your rear and get a life.

  10. Oldtimer says:

    I haven’t seen the “sting” and am not going to. But one question comes to mind. Assume no audio or video manipulation (as Tehelka was suspected to have done in the George Fernandes case). However, in the socalled “defence gate” case, Tarun Tejpal admitted to having supplied prostitutes to some of the people filmed in the “sting”, and admitted to even filming the copulation between the sex workers and his victims.

    Question: did he supply prostitutes again for this ’sting’? How do we ever get to know the truth?

  11. Oldtimer says:

    The question above assumes greater significance because a political leader currently with the Congress once dubbed tehelka.com as ‘pimp.com’ on a news channel.

  12. Nitin says:

    Without having seen the video or read the transcript:

    As a student of information science I’m unable to understand why Tehelka thinks this sting has information value. Information value is inversely proportional to the probability of the message; since Godhra has been stuck on Modi for years now, the sting doesn’t tell you anything new.

    From an information science point of view, a real tehelka would have been a sting that suggested “Modi was innocent of any role in the riots”

  13. yossarin says:

    Hand it to Mr. Pai for the most astute comment of the day.

  14. Ravindra says:

    Oldtimer: “Question: did he supply prostitutes again for this ’sting’? How do we ever get to know the truth?”

    OT, even if he did, the media will condone it. It is only in cases like Shakti Kapoor stings where the media would come in support of the victim (Shakti Kapoor, Congress supporter) and criticise the media (India TV in this case, never Tehelka)

    What surprises me that Tehelka never seems to be able to get any scoop against the “secular” establishment in its political coverage! In all these years of UPA rule, looks like pastmasters at scams like Laloo, Pawar etc have all turned a new leaf!

  15. shashi says:

    It wouldn’t be very surprising that all the participants in the sting actually cooperated to implicate themselves… they would know as much as anybody that sting operations are never accepted as evidence against them. Besides all these guys are known detractors of Modi. How is it possible that they were taped within last 6 months praising Modi to heaven. Essentially the script could have been written in Tehelka office itself, there is virtually nothing that these people say that has not been written by Tehelka and other fringe “secular” press about Modi and Sangh parivar

  16. Oldtimer says:

    Is Tejpal in the information business?

    Propaganda value is directly proportional to the amount of repetition.

  17. anonymous says:

    It’s easy for the mainstream to say ‘move on’.Somehow no one thinks of what the entire tragedy and its implications are for the victims, Hindu and Muslim, sufferer and perpetrator.
    The way I see it, the entire state of Gujarat is still suffering under the shadow of 2002.And until justice is delivered, there can be no moving on.
    Moving on does not mean circumventing the problem, but investigating it and finding the truth.That is why we must reopen the 2002 cases, and until the process of justice is completed, postpone the electoral process in Gujarat.
    The Centre has to step in.

  18. shashi says:

    Awesome! In Pakistan the first democratic elections were held after the genocide of 1971. Here 5 years after the riots we have jerks suggesting that the democratic process must be indefinitely postponed till 2002 cases are settled.

  19. kk says:

    Qutubuddin Ansari, the so called face of the riots , whose picture is plasteres at Tehelka and other papers today has long returned back to Gujarat because could not ,yes, could not make his living as a tailor in West Bengal. On his return ,he said he was happy to be where he is and asked the mediamen to leave him.

    This news appeared in a Gujarati paper as well as in a Kolkata paper, the link which i am unable to provide.

    As, for the details, i have to rad them before replying any further.

  20. jyotindra says:

    Anyone or everyone would like Modi’s head, now that the sting operation has brought ‘truth’ to the fore. But anyone or everone is forgetting that Modi has been time and again repeating in his public meetings: give me death sentence if I have done anything wrong. All his other quotable quotes are picked up by the media, but not this one.
    Only a man who has courage of his conviction would be able to say like this. Due processes of law are not yet over. Under English jurisprudence which we have adopted too, no man is guilty till proved. We must spare our judgment for this man, till law finds him guilty.
    Those heady days of Godhra train massacre, and aftermath, have created scars, but every now and then, opening the old scars, is like indulging in perverse pasttimes.
    America bombed Nagasaki and Hiroshima in the heat of war. Afterwards, it helped Japan and Germany to overcome war losses. Prayer meetings are held in both the cities on bombing days, but I have never seen hatred or animosity against USA on this score.
    Decisions taken under the heat of the moment are not rational, humanitarian. After the heat is over, reconstruction and reconciliation has to begin. The media is not playing positive role right here.

  21. prakash says:

    The sequence of events given by Tehelka is a big lie.
    Read it yourself.

    http://www.tehelka.com/story_main35.asp?filename=Ne031107Godhra.asp

    As far as one knows, there was only one tea/refreshments vendor on the platform and Godhra station is no Vadodara Junction where there are many vendors

    So with the passage of time, the fictional tea vendors also increased ?

    Also, they are repeating the “Karsevaks pulled a Muslim girl inside S 6″ theory.

    This report first appeared om March 1 , 2002 on UmmahNews . Is there any need to verify the source ?

    A Pti reporter, his name Soni, was alleged to have writtwn this.
    Later Soni himself told iclearly that he was a victim of false propoganda, but nobody covered this.

    So Tehelka is doing what it does best : Spinning.

    I am surprised they didnt mention that Ram Sevaks burned the coach and not the Muslim mob.

  22. kk says:

    The sequence of events given by Tehelka is a big lie.
    Read it yourself.

    http://www.tehelka.com/story_main35.asp?filename=Ne031107Godhra.asp

    As far as one knows, there was only one tea/refreshments vendor on the platform and Godhra station is no Vadodara Junction where there are many vendors

    So with the passage of time, the fictional tea vendors also increased ?

    Also, they are repeating the “Karsevaks pulled a Muslim girl inside S 6″ theory.

    This report first appeared om March 1 , 2002 on UmmahNews . Is there any need to verify the source ?

    A Pti reporter, his name Soni, was alleged to have written this.
    Later Soni himself told clearly that he was a victim of false propaganda, but nobody covered this.

    So Tehelka is doing what it does best : Spinning.

    I am surprised they didnt mention that Ram Sevaks burned the coach and not the Muslim mob.

  23. kk says:

    Finally, the PICs that no Tehelka will ever carry.
    Watch it ONLY if you are not offended by gruesome burnt bodies

    http://www.fisiusa.org/fisi_images/

  24. [...] For continued political coverage read Offstumped [...]

  25. Last heard in the corridors of 24 Akabar road.’No media spokespersons any more,we have appointed Tarun Tejpal for the job’.Poor singhivis,jayantis and others…aab kaya karenge becahre!

    Tehalka ne sab ke pet par laat mar di.
    PI.

  26. Sunil K says:

    Nobody was ever killed in Gujarat, it is all in the imagination of the English speaking media.

  27. anonymous says:

    “Nobody was ever killed in Gujarat, it is all in the imagination of the English speaking media.”

    Wrong. People were killed in S-6 of Sabramati Express. They killed themselves by setting themselves on fire. That’s what the English media discovered.

  28. anonymous says:

    “Wrong. People were killed in S-6 of Sabramati Express. They killed themselves by setting themselves on fire. That’s what the English media discovered.”

    Please don’t misrepresent the English Media. The English media did not say that passengers in S-6 killed themselves. They said that it was an act of God that killed them. By “act of God” they did not mean any Hindu or Muslim god. They meant an accident. Even the railway minister and Justice(retd) Banerjee (after he returned from his foreign trip) said the same thing.

  29. Sujoy says:

    For KK and others who cares, here’s the link on Ansari
    http://www.telegraphindia.com/1071015/asp/nation/story_8436249.asp

  30. kk says:

    Sujoy, thanks.

    Hopefully, people will read that before plastering Qutubuddin Ansari’s photo at every place.

  31. kk says:

    Some points after reading the entire script and watching the videos on Tehelka.com

    http://www.tehelka.com/story_main35.asp?filename=Ne031107spycam_videos.asp

    # When Arvind P and Babu bajrangi are speaking, where is all of their lip movement ? Tehelka claims that ‘the spycam was placed on the lap’ hence the face is not clearly seen in many cases. Then how is one to determine what is being said, if something is beingsaid in the first place
    Arvind’s video is clearly out of synch

    # The date on Arvind’s video is ‘2001.01.09 ‘
    Didn’t the ‘holocaust’ happen in 2002 ?
    So Tehelka forgot to set the date in the spycam?

    # The date on Bajrangi’s video is ‘2001.01.01 ‘
    Same argument as above.

    # The date on Arvind’s video is ‘2001.01.13 ‘
    Same argument as above.

    So can this be challenged in the court of law ?
    Or is this trial by the Eng lang media which has already delivered Modi the verdict ?

  32. kk says:

    Correction,
    The date on Ramesh’s video is ‘2001.01.13 ‘

  33. Nagesh says:

    “So can this be challenged in the court of law ?”

    Absolutely . Use Digital Forensic tools ,some are available freely on net . Someone should sue them .

  34. Nagesh says:

    http://intellibriefs.blogspot.com/2007/10/facts-speak-for-themselves-godhra-and.html

    GODHRA INCIDENT

    BURNING ALIVE OF 58 INDIAN CITIZENS TRAVELLING IN

    COACH S-6 OF SABARMATI EXPRESS
    EDITOR: NAGESH HAVE EDITED IT SO IT IS READABLE FOR OTHERS, THEY CAN VISIT YOUR URL IF THEY WANT TO READ ON

  35. rc says:

    >> # The date on Arvind’s video is ‘2001.01.09 ‘
    Didn’t the ‘holocaust’ happen in 2002 ?
    So Tehelka forgot to set the date in the spycam? >>

    Wow !! Awesome observation.

    If I were an undercover operative, whose only output is a video. I would damn well make sure the date is set correctly. Why ? Because , every risk I take is for this dang video.

    Even assuming this is not fabrication. It shows a remarkable sloppiness, thereby calling into question his overall technique.

  36. [...] Re: Gujarat riots a genocide; Modi sanctioned it: Tehelka Tehelka expose on Gujarat Riots – Offstumped Reaction [...]

  37. Bala says:

    “The Offstumped is published through The Indian National Interest, an online community of individuals committed to increasing public awareness and education on strategic affairs, economic policy and governance pertaining to India. It is neither a part of nor aligned to any political party or platform ”

    – Really? Offstumped seems to love Modi and BJP tooooo much and it does a far better job than BJP in resolving the latest crisis in favor of BJP/Modi.

    (may not matter but still I say – I have never voted for congress)

  38. Chirag says:

    Edited for foul language. If you can’t articulate your criticism without using expletives you should reconsider visiting this site.

  39. Janpar Mallai says:

    You are right in a way, Bala…fanatacism is not healthy towards any direction…but it is ultimately the Congress and its chamcha’s like Tehelka, Medha Patkar and so forth that have done the most to create Modi’s deity-like image. In 2002, the BJP used its traditional voters, plus Hindutva post-Godhra to ride in on a landslide. This time, BJP and Modi have ditched Hindutva, but the Congress/partners have decided to make Godhra the key issue. It is a psychology matter, people…Gujarati’s have no interest in having non-Gujarati’s come in an explain to them how “horrible” they are, how they must “repent”, etc…what in effect that has done is that those voters who may have been on the fence, who at some point felt more could have been done to prevent rioting in 2002, or even some feeling a bit of anti-incumbency against the administration, they neatly fall into Modi’s lap.

    So, in conclusion, if the Congress wanted to re-build in Gujarat, it needs to learn that fighting extreme right ideology (That too, which has moved much more to the Centre in the past five years) with extreme leftist ideology is not the right strategy. Fools they are.

  40. Gujjuman says:

    As I always thought, election this time would be vanilla of development with chocalate sauce of hinduvta on it. Modi saheb has again proved that he is master strategist. Operation kalank has not only cleared whatever rebelion was left, but also upgraded platform from mandal levels to kamandal levels. Modi has become irresistable in Gujarat now. Namo ko Namo!!

  41. mr says:

    @kk: the year on all those videos is 2000, not 2001.

    i suppose that is the default date. anyway, considering the ‘year’ argument, it is very unlikely that these guys are so good at spinning yarns. And ones that are so accurate a prediction of what is to come.

  42. take action says:

    I think people of India and Indian diaspora can do something beyond just discussing this in egroups and blogs.

    The Tehelka tapes confirm the crimes of the Gujarat RSS/BJP/VHP leadership. They should not get away with this.

    The RSS/BJP/VHP national leadership is not directly tainted by this. Nor are the other parties of the NDA coalition, some of which still support them.

    So consider the possibility of thousands or millions of people sending letters, faxes (and in the worst case emails as they are often ignored)
    saying to Advani/Vajpayee/Jaitley/etc. (the BJP national leadership) that you better denounce the tainted leaders of your party in Gujarat or be ready to show your real face to rest of India.

    Yes, Mr. Modi led his party to victory in Gujarat after the 2002 incident. But one should not forget that the NDA lost after that.

    So if the rest of the country and the good Gujuratis tell Mr. Advani/Vajpayee/Jaitley/etc. in no uncertain terms that this is a second chance to them. In 2002 they wiggled out but now the Tehelka tapes show the truth and if they (Mr. Advani/Vajpayee/Jaitley/) do not want to be clubbed together with Mr. mass murderer Modi then they should immediately suspend all the tainted leaders of Gujarat from their party.

    EDITOR: EDITED FOR READABILITY’S SAKE PLS POST A URL IF YOU WANT READERS TO DO WHAT YOU WANT THEM TO DO

  43. [...] « Tehelka expose on Gujarat Riots – Offstumped Reaction [...]

  44. jyotindra says:

    Modi – ‘a mass murderer’ ?
    Who proved? Tehelka expose.
    Is Tehelka, a court of law?
    Definitely not.
    If A says one thing, merely by saying so, it is not admitted as truth.
    If A says one thing against B, by merely saying so against B, is not proved as truth.
    Rule of natural justice required that B has, and must have, the right to defend what is said against him by A.
    If any one, at this juncture, says Modi is a ‘mass murder’, he/she is incurring the charge of libel or defamation.
    People of Gujarat rejected in 2002, this charge or any other charges against Modi. Don’t then heap insult on Gujarat electorate. You are a democractic country. Respect the verdict of majority.
    This time round, Modi is presenting before the electorate what he has done for his state and its people. When he says he is leader of 5.5 crores people of Gujarat, he means he represents all cross sections of society.
    Modi will earn in the days to come poetic justice by the very people of Gujarat whom he proudly represents.
    It’s O.K. during election, all parties indulge in hyperbole and injudicious mix of truth with untruth.
    Everything is fair in love and war, and now election.
    I am defending Modi solely on the ground that he is not declared a culprit, anywhere or at anytime by the Court of Law, or the due processes of Law. If he is proved guilty, well nothing wrong if due punishment is meted out to him. Poetic justice will ultimately prevail.

  45. Vikrant says:

    Dear brothers N sisters, the so called expose done by Tehelka N TV Today are not to be discussed as true or false. Neither its about Congress or BJP. Its about U and me. Its about humanity.

    After watching all, if still you feel that what Bajrangi accepted with pride that he slited a pregnant woman’s womb is not the ugliest crime in the world, u r hopeless.

    U R such a blind supporter of Modi or I should say opposer of Tehelka that if Modi or bajrangi rapes your sister or mother in front of you and tehelka reports this you will not accept and say “I have already seen this, what new is Tehelka doing now?”

    For God sake dont say THIS IS HINDUISM.

  46. Vikrant says:

    Everyone here seems to be talking about Tehelka, Congress, BJP, elections. That means there is no value of a human beings life.

    I strongly object when somebody says – “Jai Shree Ram” and kills an innocent just because he or she is a muslim. Which religion you follow my brother. Quote me a line from the holy book you read which permits you to do this.

    If you say it was a revenge for what happened on Sabarmati Express, I ask, has that woman or unborn baby burnt the train whom u slitted and put fire.

  47. Vikrant says:

    Nobody expects anything great from the dead people of this country, just accept in your heart what happened was wrong.

    And drop your sights down with shy that one of us have raped our sisters, mothers and killed our brothers brutally.

  48. Nitin says:

    Yossarin

    t. When a person no less than the high priestess of Left of Center Journalism, Sagarika Ghosh, goes on record in the Hindustan Times to say that only mass leaders like Narendra Modi can ensure economic reforms in a country like India one must sit up and reflect on it.

    I’d this is very clever on her part: to portray a controversial figure like Modi as the mascot of right-of-centre politics. By drawing the battle lines of public debate so cleverly, she presents the public with a false choice: for Brand Modi or for Brand UPA/Left.

  49. yossarin says:

    Nitin – not sure if you have read the full piece by sagarika ghosh. she is actually critical of UPA and Manmohan singh. makes the point that mass leaders like mayawati and modi stand the best chance of pushing reforms.

  50. Nagesh says:

    Did Hustice Banerjee answered these questions
    ——————————————–

    1) Did you consider the evidence that two meetings took place on the night of 26.2.2002 at the Aman Guest House at Godhra, where the conspiracy to set fire to Bogey No.S-6 of the Sabarmati Express was hatched?

    2) Did you consider the evidence that 140 litres of petrol was purchased from a nearby petrol pump on the night of 26.2.2002 and kept at Aman Guest House itself?

    3) Did you consider the evidence that one of the conspirators Salim Badam was verifying the movement of the Sabarmati Express at 1.30 AM on 27.2.2002 from the Godhra Railway Station? Since the train was running four hours late the conspirators reassembled at the Aman Guest House at 6 AM.

    4) Did you consider the evidence that chain pulling was simultaneously executed from various compartments to get the train stopped so that the mob at the platform could indulge in stone throwing?

    5) Did you consider the evidence of workers who have deposed about the transportation of petrol from the Aman Guest House to the Station?

    6) Did you consider the evidence that the conspirators entered Bogey No.S-7 and cut open the vestibule cord between Bogey S-6 and S-7? Then the entire quantity of petrol was poured in Bogey No. S-6. The entry was done through Bogey S-7 since the scared passengers of S-6 had bolted all the doors of their Bogey.

    7) Did you consider the fact that burning rags were thrown into Bogey No.S-6?
    8) Do you realise that the “Accident Theory” propounded by you is not an original thought? This was propounded by the accused in the case and repeated by Shri Laloo Prasad Yadav, the Railway Minister while announcing your appointment. You have merely stamped the “Laloo Theory”. If there was a minor fire under a seat due to ‘Accidental Fire’ why did the passengers not get out of the bogey and save their lives. Obviously they could not do so since there was an armed mob outside the bogey attacking them. Do you accept that your ‘Accident Theory’ discounts the presence of the armed MOB on the platform.

    9) Do you accept that a Committee appointed by the Railways cannot go into the issue of ‘conspiracy’ to set the bogey on fire? Policing is a State subject and prevention and detection of crime on Railways is the constitutional responsibility of the State Government. Did you not realise that your report is an ‘extra-constitutional’ interference in the administration of Justice since the trial is pending before the appropriate Court?

    10) Do you now realise that the functioning of the Committee and its recommendations will eventually act as the defence for the culprits?

    * Why did you accept to head a departmental inquiry of the Railways on a matter where a criminal trial and a Commission of Inquiry are pending?

    * Why was the Chief Justice of India not consulted to suggest the name of a retired Judge? You were the choice of the Railway Minister.

    * Why did you give an interim report during the election period even though your term is extended till 3rd March 2005?

    * Why did you address a Press Conference to release your report, particularly when a Judge only submits his report and it is upto the Government to release it at an appropriate time?

    * How did Shri Laloo Prasad Yadav get an advance of copy of your report since a translated copy of the summary of your report in Hindi was released by him simultaneously from his residence in Patna?

    * Do you expect anyone to believe (as you told a TV Channel) that you are unaware of the fact that Elections to some State Assemblies are being currently held?

  51. yossarin
    Rajendra Vyas – goes into great details of what he did in Godhra, again not a word directly implicating anyone but himself.

    Vyas says Modi turned a blind eye to what they did to muslims, And you say not a word implicating anyone but himself…

  52. yossarin says:

    Ramesh – that’s a general observation and not a direct implication. Where and when did he turn a blind eye ? How did he turn a blind eye ? Did vyas see him turn a blind eye ? Did modi inform vyas he was turning a blind eye ? It is questions like these that will be posed when someone makes a general observation with no corroborating facts. To directly implicate someone you need a factual description of events when where who how. A passing remark doesn’t count for much.

  53. Yossarin:
    “Babu Bajrangi – in the entire script of the sting, this guy doesnt implicate anyone but himself in the riots. This guy is considered the most important witness in the sting. With FIRs already filed and Bajrangi identified as a key accused what is the surprise here ?”

    Yossarin have you got reading problems? if not read this:

    TEHELKA: The day Patiya happened, didn’t Modi support you?

    Bajrangi: He made everything all right, otherwise who would have had the strength… It was his hand all the way… If he’d told the police to do differently, they would have f****d us…. they could have… they had full control…

    ….TEHELKA: Had he not been there,then Naroda Patiya, Gulbarg etc…

    Bajrangi:Wouldn’t have happened.Would’ve been very difficult.

    ……Bajrangi: Narendrabhai had come to see that things didn’t stop the next day… He went all around Ahmedabad, to all the places where the miyas [Muslims] were, to the Hindu areas… told people they’d done well and should do more…

    Bajrangi: [After the massacre] the commissioner issued orders [against me]… I was told to leave my home… I ran away… Narendrabhai kept me at… the Gujarat Bhavan at Mount Abu for fourand- a-half months… After that, [I did] whatever Narendrabhai told me to… Nobody can do what Narendrabhai has done in – Gujarat… If I did not have the support of Narendrabhai, we would not have been able to avenge [Godhra]… [After it was over,]….

    Bajrangi: Narendrabhai got me out of jail…… He kept on changing judges…. He set it up so as to ensure my release, otherwise I wouldn’t have been out yet… The first judge was one Dholakiaji… He said Babu Bajrangi should be hanged — not once, but four-five times, and he flung the file aside… Then came another who stopped just short of saying I should be hanged… Then there was a third one… By then, four-and-a-half months had elapsed in jail; then Narendrabhai sent me a message… saying he would find a way out… Next he posted a judge named Akshay Mehta… He never even looked at the file or anything…. He just said [bail was] granted… And we were all out… We were free….. For this, I believe in God… We are ready to die for Hindutva…

    Yossarin you can say that “you can’t read english” & sound more believable, but don’t say he is not implicating Modi.

  54. yossarin:
    “Ramesh – that’s a general observation and not a direct implication. Where and when did he turn a blind eye ? How did he turn a blind eye ? Did vyas see him turn a blind eye ? Did modi inform vyas he was turning a blind eye ? It is questions like these that will be posed when someone makes a general observation with no corroborating facts. To directly implicate someone you need a factual description of events when where who how. A passing remark doesn’t count for much.”

    Now you want to play word games. You said he is not implicating anyone besides himself:

    TEHELKA: Tell me one thing, you were there with Narendrabhai Modi that day, when the train caught fire in Godhra… What was his first reaction?

    Vyas: As chief minister, Narendrabhai couldn’t say ‘Kill all the Muslims’… I could say it publicly because I was from the Vishwa Hindu Parishad… Pravinbhai Togadia can say it… But he [Modi] can’t say it… But it’s like how we say it in Gujarati, Aa khada kaan khada ]to turn a blind eye]… meaning, he gave us a free run to do whatever we wanted since we were already fed up with the Muslims… The police was with us… Please understand what I’m trying to say — the police was on our side, and so was the entire Hindu samaj… Bhai [Modi] was careful about that… or else the police would have been on the other side….

    But he is certainly saying Modi helped him. As for your questions.

    “Where and when did he turn a blind eye ? How did he turn a blind eye?”

    The quote answers those questions.

    As for you other question, of course, Vyas saying so doesn’t obviously make it true. But I am not debating the truth what Vyas is claiming, But rather your remark that Vyas doesn’t say a word implicating others besides him.

    More over Bajrangi’s quotes prove clearly, that according to them, they had Modi’s support. That is they are indeed implicating Modi. But whether this proves that Modi was involved is a different story.

  55. yossarin says:

    Ramesh – with all due respect I would not have provided urls for each and every one of these transcripts without being aware of what u have copy pasted here and without fully expecting every reader to go thru the transcripts themselves. So you can save us the copy paste and debate the substance. To “incriminate” directly and specifically each of them should have on camera corroborated their general observations, hearsay and boasts with a factual reference to a specific conversation or exchange at a date-tim

  56. yossarin says:

    Ramesh – what u have here is essentially insinuation and slander. For it to rise to the level of incriminating evidence it needs factual corroboration. So if you say did bajrangi or vyas insinuate and slander modi, you bet they did. But does that insinuation or slander come with incriminating evidence – no it doesn’t.

  57. Yossarin
    I never said whatever they said is true. Thats a different debate altogether. Are they saying that Modi is involved in the plot? YES! Whether there is any truth too their claims is a different story.

    Now this is enough to question Modi, remember, I am not saying Modi is guilty but their testimony should be enough to order an official inquiry to evaluate Modi’s role.

  58. yossarin says:

    Ramesh – there is already a commission of enquiry which has heard some of this before and is bound to examine the tapes. Let us see what it has to say as well as the supreme court. The first thing would be to seize all the raw footage before it is doctored and subject it to forensic analysis. Beyond that I don’t believe anything is required.

  59. yossarin
    But Modi should resign since the allegation laid on him so big. But this has become so alien to our politicians that I don’t expect Modi to do so, but if he does that it is welcome!

  60. abdul says:

    whenever i goto mosq on friday for prayers my imams always tell kill kafirs and all my fellow uneducated muslims are coming out of mosq and throwing stones and starting the riots. these imams are taking money from pakistan terrorist/isi agents and sheltering bangladesh/pakistan muslims. whenever we q them they used to say we are all brothers and for muslims religion first and not the country.. unless we stop this these things will happen. We should change first before blaming someone. Check at anything other country how minorities are living and respecting majority. Just becacuse these pseudo secular parties are supporting for anything just for our votes we shouldnt do like this. Why should we give shelter for banglapakistan muslims? and they are doing bomb blasts and killing innocent indians. When u r crying for ur fellow muslim citizens they do cry for their fellow citizens. First stop listening to pseudo secular parties and rude imams. For every action there will be an equal reaction and we shoult not forget that..

    Why are not we going to streets when our fellow muslims kill innocent hindus in bomb blasts or in riots? Why were we silent when our muslims burned trin and killed innocent hindus? If we should have done that at that time and punished our fellow muslims for that then this wouldnt have happend at all. We are saying that hindus killed our muslims in post godhra riots but who killed 350 hindus in post godhra riots? is not our fellow muslims? if 15% of muslims can kill 350 hindus then 85% of hindus can kill 750 muslims. If someone slaps u then imm u slap them back that is what happend.. better to learn our mistakes first before we point others.. These junk media and pseudo secular parties work for votes and channel ratings.. they really dont care about the people. They are the one culprits.. When our fellow muslims burned the train and this media was showing the samething again and again 10000 times and whoever watch that then they will get angry.. We are responding for events that happend outside india and starting riots( cartoon) and we are expecting hindus to be calm even if after burnign the train and in post godhra our muslims killed 350 hindus and supporting that and blaming for 750 muslims deaths..

  61. xyz says:

    Yossarin,
    I think a terrible thing because of momentary madness and a 1000 year old history of provocation,humiliation and massacres which are continuing this day.

    It has also something to do with the non-martial nature of gujaratis and their being a trading community.Sometimes a not very courageous,timid people reach the limits of patience.A people who would normally suffer insults as a part of their daily routine,at a certain instant and under certain conditions sort of “bolt off”.After madhavsingh solanki’s KHAM experiment they had been fed on a heady dose of hindutva.We know how fragile hindutva is.It can come apart as seen in mandal agitations or reservations in general.When you belive in non-existent idealism and the reality is scary,people can do monstrous things.The real genocide by porkistan army in East Bengal was an example.

    I think we have no option but to support Modi.I salute your courage particularly seen against the venom in the hearts of “seculars”,”educated” muslims.S*** like tejpal have succeeded in their aim.India has been humiliated before the world.

    There is one thing which scares me.Mavericks(of Indian mavericks)says many indian youth like you and other jingoes who contribute to DF are going to be disillusioned like the terrorists in punjab and kashmir.I have to agree with them.I think we need to have a political party which combines the best elements of BJP and congress.

    In Tamilnadu DMK,congress,PMK,communists work together to promote tamil interests.The Congress dares not to offend sikh fundamentalism in punjab.The Shiv-sena and NCP have a tacit understanding in Bombay.The BJP and Congress have to co-ordinate to dovetail the interests of indian nationalism.Desppite being messy and time consuming,a synthetic view has been our strength.

    While Gujarat needs to be protected and we cannot let them down now,it is important the gujaratis should also be educated on the need to put up an act before the mlecchas,without sacrificing one’s core ideal.We sometimes have to back off to win the war.This should not be difficult as many gujaratis are born businessmen.

    Also i am scared by the intelligence of the likes of VHP henchmen who could be so easily penetrated by morons of tehelka.That is a sad commentary on the calibre of vhp wallahs.Such fools are not the best of your companions.

    While i am no muslim lover,it stuns me that a man has no remorse for having split open the womb of a woman.Such atrocities have occured before,like in partition.Yet,we pride in our dharma.This was peacetime,no doubta grave provocation had occured.Yet he has no remorse after 5 years.We are not believers in the sense of semitic religions.This man has nothing but hate.If we nuke pakistan,we would be celebrating.But killing a pregnant woman,corrections are needed in the hindutva project in gujarat.The RSS leadership has to take the blame.

  62. [...] convictions in Godhra come in the wake of a raging debate on the 2002 riots in light of a hyped up television sting by a dubious outfit in [...]

  63. [...] convictions in Godhra come in the wake of a raging debate on the 2002 riots in light of a hyped up television sting by a dubious outfit in [...]

  64. Dear Yossarin,
    I feel pity for your defence of the Gujerat riots and condemnation of the tehelka expose. TRUTH has heigher value than anything you know.
    When madani is acquitted in coimbatore blasts case , i felt the same feeling. Why to condemn Modi, i will even say the centre under Vajpayee was responsible. It is the same reason when delhi citizens killed the sikhs and goondas made use of the general FEELING.
    A particular mood was created at that time by NDTV and other channels by showing the burning godhra train compartment.The anger was palpable in every corner of india. But it is very difficult for me or majority of us to KILL AND RAPE any body in revenge so easily even if we have seen our own sister is raped. Gujerat patels got rapists from the tribals and OBCs from neighbouring states and villages to do the dirty job. In delhi the anger was palpable against the sikhs after Indira was killed. Some sikhs distribted sweets and lighted diyas. Still not ordinary citizens could not kill and rape in retaliation. so the lumpens who are from UP and Harayana were employed by the leaders.
    CREATION OF THIS MOOD OF HATRED is the ROOT CAUSE AND LEADERS ONLY EXPLOIT IT.
    By the way i think personally Modi will get support from the fractured BJP who are closing ranks now. Modi will gain from this tehelka expose.
    TRUTH HAS HEIGHER CONNOTATION dear .

  65. yossarin says:

    Captain Johann – you have missed the point. Nobody can or is defending the riots. What one is doing here is questioning the sensationalism, the motives behind the expose and the actual value of the expose as far as justice to the riot affected goes. Please read the subsequent posts in addition to this one.

  66. [...] knew. She follows up with more sanctimony and some lament that the sting has only been met by empty counter-arguments and conspiracy theories. She then goes on to make accusations of ducking the truth and terms [...]

  67. [...] knew. She follows up with more sanctimony and some lament that the sting has only been met by empty counter-arguments and conspiracy theories. She then goes on to make accusations of ducking the truth and terms [...]

  68. [...] follows up with more sanctimony and some lament that the sting has only been met by empty counter-arguments and conspiracy [...]

  69. bhanu says:

    Hi Yossarin:

    Have been a regular reader of your blog for more than a year now.

    Have you seen this item in the IE today where Karat has come out in open support of China vis a vis India?

    Pasting the link here
    http://www.expressindia.com/latest-news/IndoUS-ties-antiChina-so-we-will-oppose-Karat/234840/16/

    Await a befitting reply to this Chinese spy’s comments

  70. Kerty says:

    I know many Gujarati friends and they have absolutely no remorse about 2002 riots. Many Gujaratis who are otherwise timid peace-loving people participated in riots and wear their participation and encouragement as badge of honor rather than shame. Godhra Carnage was a straw that broke the camel’s back. Gujarat has suffered a lot at the hands of Jehadi invaders and their psychie of humiliation has not been healed yet. Gujaratis are very religious by nature. They saw their earnest request to handover their holiest shrines as a symbolic gesture of goodwill and reconcilliation between two communities turn into protracted communal confrontation in Ayodhya because Moslem Jehadis egged on by secular establishment could not stomoch the opportunity to heal old wounds and usher reconcilliation that has been long overdue. It reinforced the Hindu fear that Moghul Jehad against Hindus is still alive and well in India. That Moslems do not want to reconcile with Hindus. That Moslems do not want to live in peace with Hindus. That Moslem Jehad against Hindus is perpetual until Hindus are vanquished and humiliated. Secular establishment added insult to the injury by their own attacks and slanders. Than Godhara carnage occurred. Again secular establishment added insult to the injury by they-deserved-it attitude. There was not a single voice of protest or condemnation from any moslems or secular pandits. That really lit the fire. And it exploded like a volcano in Gujarat. I believe secular establishment is entirely responsible for Gujarat Riots. Had it acted responsibly rather than scoring political points against hindus, riots would have been prevented. Surely rioters would do what they do any riots – kill, mutilate, torture, burn. Why is it only Modi’s moral responsibility that riots occurred in Gujarat? Where is the moral responsibility of secular establishment that was equally guilty inflaming and provoking the riots? Now in the aftermath of riots, secularists are at it again faking moral high-ground and exploiting the tragedies of riots for political ends. Do they have any shame? It is they who are truly remorseless and heinous.

    Surely lots of barbarism and genocides took place during Partition, but are you going to blame only those who killed and maimed the innocent in the theater of bloody street wars, or those who were entrusted to look after people’s welfare and agreed to partition but criminally failed to provide any state-to-state mechanism for safe and peaceful transfer of population and protection to population that stayed behind partition lines? Did anybody held Gandhi and Nehru personally liable for all the crimes and genocides committed as a consequence of their actions and inactions, errors and omissions? People were left to fend for themselves and fight it out in streets. In stead of owning moral responsibility for genocides, these secular leaders went on to blame the victims of their failed vision and ideology. And that tradition of arrogance, remorselessness, fake self-righteousness and lack of accountability of secularists continues till date. Than why should hindus be the only people who feel remorse and shame for riots that were so tiny compared to collosal genocides of the partition? Gujaratis saw the arrogance of jehadis and secularists and feel their butts needed thrashing. If they still fail to see reason, many more will come.

  71. Anand says:

    I have seen some of the posts on here with interest. You guys are raising some issues I wouldn’t have thought of.

    Politically, I come from a very different viewpoint, so it’s interesting to see what other perspectives people have.

    I would like to hear your reaction to some of the issues I have.

    The basic issues which Tehelka has highlighted (the ones which interest me) are (allegedly)
    1) Pre-meditation and planning of riots after train attack
    2) State and police complicity in riots
    3) Modi’s involvement

    I would be interested in your reaction to the following question:

    What do you think about the Human Rights Watch report of 2002? (In particular, the section on State complicity etc.)

    Just to be clear, I agree there are lots of issues around here, I’m only talking about a relatively one. In particular, not concerned with legal, moral issues, which, as you point out, should be decided by courts and by individuals respectively.

    Thanks

  72. yossarin says:

    Anand – thanks for the comment. I just read the relevant section you referred to. I am not surprised at instances of local law enforcement either being direlict or complicit, that has been a characteristic of riots in the past as well. The rest of the section talks of pre-planned conspiracy of which I don’t believe there is any hard evidence to date. The 2002 riots were a clear case of the administration not preempting large scale and targeted violence on account of inexperience and some bias.

  73. Anand says:

    Thanks for the reply.

    You hold the view that local law enforcement officials (police?) were derelict or complicit, but there’s not much hard evidence of state sponsorship and complicity.

    So, I think you disagree with Tehelka on the extent of the role of the state govt. and/or Modi. (Is this correct?)

    Of course, this is a wide area and a number of issues come up. Here are a few:

    a) Voter lists: The HRW report says that it interviewed many eyewitnesses which point to voter lists being used.

    b) Police role: It says in lots of places police were leading mobs and/or driving the people towards mobs. This could be at the local level, sure, but it seems there are a lot of cases like this. A case could be made of some higher level involvement (of course, it would need supportive evidence, either direct or circumstantial).

    c) MLA’s involvement A number of MLAs are being alleged to have been involved.

    d) RSS, VHP etc. involvement Tehelka purports to show a number of senior BJP, RSS, VHP persons’ involvement. For instance, Haresh Bhatt and Deepak Shah, where he claims all the local bigwigs were involved planning. Of course, the last claim is hearsay, but it does have some significance.

    e) On army’s role: The army was brought in on March 1. HRW alleges that there was delay in deploying most of the force (quoting the Times of India and AP) till 24 hours later.

    f) The bandh: It’s alleged in the HRW report and supported in some of Tehelka’s transcripts (for example Anil Patel, who says Congress people were also involved) that the bandh was interpreted as a call to action.

    Would be interested in hearing your reaction. In particular, what do you think reasonable evidence would be for doubt to go beyond local level to state level?

  74. yossarin says:

    Anand – most of what u have cited happened in the 92 93 mumbai riots but no allegations of state complicity were made against the then congress govt. To me direct evidence wud be
    - someone going on record under oath to testify that modi or members of his cabinet at a specific location at a specific time gave specific instructions. If there is corroborating circumstantial evidence is established that the said individuals did indeed meet at the said location at the said tme then it wud be basis to subpoena

  75. Anand says:

    Just to clarify my point here:

    a) I’m not comparing what happenned in 2002 with 1992-93, or for that matter, 1984. Of course, that would eventually have to be done when we’re passing judgement on 2002 if we’re comparing BJP to Congress (say). But here I’m not. I’m concentrating on a certain point. Maybe my focus is too narrow.
    As to why I’m focussing on this, there are a few reasons:
    (i) I don’t know a lot about the other cases. (Enough to make some broad generalizations, that’s all)
    (ii) Justice and/or help for the victims of 1984 and/or 1992-93 is not directly related to 2002.
    (iii) We don’t only have a choice between Congress or BJP or CPM. NationalInterest has often talked about a “non-socialist” party.

    b) Regarding subpoena etc.: As I mentioned earlier, I’m not interested (here) in the legal issues of the case. First, that’s for the courts to decide, and second that needs more investigation (which I can’t do).

    I’m interested in the political aspects of the case. Incidentally, I’m sure we can agree that the law in India (as elsewhere) is often influenced by political aspects.

    c) Regarding direct evidence: Your reply only mentioned one kind of direct evidence regarding one issue (the alleged meeting) – which incidentally would help in a court of law. Surely, there are many other ways in which I (an aam aadmi) can make up my mind about the issue of state complicity? So would be interested in your reacftion to the other points.

  76. yossarin says:

    Anand – in the absence of evidence (judicial type) I am afraid it is down to perceptions based on unsubstantiated media reports and hearsay. One could take the sum total of all of that and conclude the state was complicit on the other hand one could point out gaps and conclude the state was not complicit. That is the problem here we are by and large debating perceptions based on conclusions drawn from not so sound evidence

  77. Anand says:

    a) In my opinion, you are taking a very narrow view of “evidence”. It should hardly be news to both of us that legal issues are very much dependent on political ones. To illustrate, just take the conviction of only a very few people in the 1984 riots till now.

    b) It’s not necessary to have judicial evidence for many of the issues I raised. Your reply only covered one part (the alleged meeting) of one issue.

    c) Newspapers or any other reports should be read with a cautious eye. But, I don’t think you’re suggesting we dismiss them wholesale. HRW, for example, claims to have interviewed eyewitnesses. Unless there’s a good reason to suppose otherwise, it’s quite likely that at least some of the allegations in the report are real. We can look for patterns, supportive reports, different viewpoints.

  78. yossarin says:

    Anand – eyewitness accounts only confirm what local complicity, State complicity cannot be established from eye witness accounts of riot victims unless someone saw or was present or overhead or taped specific instructions from the Cabinet or a section of the Cabinet. But for hearsay and boasts from Tehelka and some questionable phone records from Mukul Sinha’s JSM we have nothing here. Of course we have Mr. Modi’s belligerence and stubborn refusal to be politically correct. In fact the only difference between Gujarat and other previous incidents is not so much the local complicity but the Political Leadership’s stubborn resistance to be politically correct. It is this belligerence that raises the heckles of the psuedo-liberal media and hence its interpretation of the belligerence as evidence of State Complicity, holocaust and everything etc etc… Mr. Modi’s stubborn refusal is politics of his choice and if the wisdom of the crowds stands by him come Dec 23rd the ethical/political issue of complicity is settled.

  79. [...] the sting that never stung. His game was over the moment he began to “justify” the “expose.” The [...]

  80. [...] For about a week now India’a War on Terror was distracted and defocused as the media had another Babu Bajrangi moment. [...]

  81. [...] the original post here: Tehelka expose on Gujarat Riots – Offstumped Reaction « Shveta … Share and [...]

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